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New attendance record for CYCC (non Ontario edition)
Nope. I still don't like it. Sounds prejudiced to me. We're all immigrants in this country, or descended from immigrants, aren't we? One group of immigrants is not intrinsically better, or any less deserving of what this country has to offer, than another, in my opinion. That's why I object to Hansen's note.
This whole thread is infected with everything that we need to stamp out of chess namely xenophobia and expressions of prejudice whether intended or unintended.
The face of Canada is changing and we need to get used to it. Snide remarks about how chess is not healthy if its participants don't match up to some particular racial profile betray the ignorance of people making those remarks.
This whole thread is infected with everything that we need to stamp out of chess namely xenophobia and expressions of prejudice whether intended or unintended.
The face of Canada is changing and we need to get used to it. Snide remarks about how chess is not healthy if its participants don't match up to some particular racial profile betray the ignorance of people making those remarks.
But the situation isn't healthy.... Most of the participants are playing not because chess is popular in Canada or that they have chess clubs and are exposed to it. Most of them are playing because their parents push them to play. That is OK , but we can't pat ourselves on the back and say chess is healthy in Canada. People ask me all the time how chess is in Canada, it's pretty hard to answer or describe. It is "do everything on your own and have parents spend lots of money. " :)
Canadian chess is really lacking with its youth program. USA, S.Africa, Europe, have programs far more developed than us.
Don't forget Asia, South America, Turkey, Israel, Iran and some others... :) One of the federations priority should be to lobby for chess to become part of the school curriculums but this is not being done either by the CFC or the FQE, or even by CMA who specializes in the after school leftovers.
But the situation isn't healthy.... Most of the participants are playing not because chess is popular in Canada or that they have chess clubs and are exposed to it. Most of them are playing because their parents push them to play. That is OK , but we can't pat ourselves on the back and say chess is healthy in Canada. People ask me all the time how chess is in Canada, it's pretty hard to answer or describe. It is "do everything on your own and have parents spend lots of money. " :)
I can't speak about the situation across Canada but I can say that in Windsor it is not the parents pushing the kids to play. The parents are supporting the kids desire to play by taking them to clubs, tournaments and classes. The kids tend to be involved in many other activities at the same time as chess. Most of these kids are not immigrants. They were born here. When a parent shows signs that he or she is pushing the kid to play I tell them not to bother because the kid won't get much out of it.
I have no illusions that chess in Canada is healthy. It doesn't help chess to become healthy to have one of Canada's top players to come on chesstalk and write something that makes him look like he is a prejudiced buffoon. I have not heard anything about you that would lead me to believe that you are a prejudiced buffoon but that is how you come across to me in these posts and I am about as right wing and politically incorrect as it gets in life. You are young and don't always choose your words carefully but the key when you find yourself in a deep hole is to stop digging before it gets too deep for you to just step out of it.
You can have the conversation that chess is not so popular among the mainstream general population of Canada but that is not my experience in Windsor and area. In fact, when I helped John Coleman with the Chatham Chess Challenge which is about 100 kilometers from Windsor there were almost no visible minorities in the crowd of 200+ kids.
In Windsor, visible minorities are much more present but I don't see a Chinese kid or an Indian kid or a French kid, or a white anglo saxon protestant kid, or whatever. I just see a bunch of kids who love to play chess and want to get better at it. Its probably why we get more girls playing as well, we see a kid that loves to play and we support that love regardless of ethnicity or gender.
I'm sure I definitely don't always choose the best words but may I ask whom it looked like I was prejudiced against? I've run summer camps, taught in schools,and volunteered and I'm calling things as I see them from experience. Nothing I've said is based on some preconceived notions.. Everything I posted was from personal experience, either my opinion or feedback I received from others. There are certain stereotypes about chess unfortunately which hold it back but they are still present whether we like it or not. It's awesome you have those numbers but we all know it is quite rare and not the norm in Canada. Chess is and always will be a multicultural game which is great, but it is my impression that chess clearly lacking in status and appeal in most parts of Canada. Chess has a good reputation in Chinese culture, and that is the main reason it is popular with the kids. Chess doesn't have that same respect in Canadian Culture but it doesn't always have to be like that.
Last edited by Eric Hansen; Thursday, 5th July, 2012, 02:33 PM.
But the situation isn't healthy.... Most of the participants are playing not because chess is popular in Canada or that they have chess clubs and are exposed to it. Most of them are playing because their parents push them to play.
Ways must be found to have more parents, regardless of their ethnic backgrounds, pushing for chess to be taught to their kids. This must be linked to school curriculums.
I'm sure I definitely don't always choose the best words but may I ask whom it looked like I was prejudiced against? I've run summer camps, taught in schools,and volunteered and I'm calling things as I see them from experience. Nothing I've said is based on some preconceived notions.. Everything I posted was from personal experience, either my opinion or feedback I received from others. There are certain stereotypes about chess unfortunately which hold it back but they are still present whether we like it or not. It's awesome you have those numbers but we all know it is quite rare and not the norm in Canada. Chess is and always will be a multicultural game which is great, but it is my impression that chess clearly lacking in status and appeal in most parts of Canada. Chess has a good reputation in Chinese culture, and that is the main reason it is popular with the kids. Chess doesn't have that same respect in Canadian Culture but it doesn't always have to be like that.
The use of the phrase "white kids" is where all this prejudice and xenophobia talk is coming from. You've explained it, but it still rings alarm bells. If you change "white kids" to "homegrown kids" and include any kid born in Canada, even those neither white nor anglo-saxon, then you're good.
I think it is wrong to say that chess itself is lacking in status or appeal to kids in most parts of Canada. Think about this: what do most Asian parents want their kids to really excel at? No, it's not chess, not really. Chess is just a means to an end. What they really want their kids to excel at is science and / or engineering and / or math. That's where the Asian culture differs greatly from the Canadian culture. Canadians do not have the respect and drive for science and engineering and math that Asian cultures do. As a result, chess isn't seen from the same viewpoint. So what if it helps a kid in math? Does it help the kid become a better goalie or defenseman or goal scorer?
Yeah, hockey: now there's a game that we can really say "white kids" and mean it. Hold on, Vlad and Peter, it's not xenophobia!
How many non-white kids in Canada play organized youth hockey? Well, I haven't been to Canada in a few years, but I'm sure the ratio of white kids to any other ethnic group of kids involved in organized youth hockey in Canada must still be close to 99:1.
The point is, Asian and Canadian cultures focus on very different things. That isn't going to change overnight. What you're seeing in current youth chess membership trends in Canada isn't due to lack of respect for chess itself. It's due to different cultural imperatives, deeply ingrained.
If we could teach native-born Canadian adults (parents) to much more highly respect science / engineering / math, and to want their kids to excel in those fields, we'd see much more of their kids in local chess clubs.
Now, what does it all mean for ADULT organized chess in Canada? I don't think the current youth wave will bring much change into adult organized chess. As stated above, chess is only a means to an end, and the end does NOT include chess. All this growth in youth chess driven by Asians is good for local chess clubs, but it won't benefit adult chess in any meaningful way. By the time they reach university age, those Asians will desert chess in droves. Maybe a few of the less talented will be hooked for life, and the exceptionally talented few will rise to the top of the Canadian adult scene, but none of that will meaningfully change organized adult chess in Canada.
Chess as a profession can't compete against those fields, and that is a good thing. In a world where science and engineering and even the social sciences are becoming ever more important and critical, chess worldwide can only remain what it is now, a profession for only the exceptionally talented few that generates almost no interest to the general public.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
One of the federations priority should be to lobby for chess to become part of the school curriculums but this is not being done either by the CFC or the FQE, or even by CMA who specializes in the after school leftovers.
As a matter of fact such lobbying has been done and has even had some limited success.
Ways must be found to have more parents, regardless of their ethnic backgrounds, pushing for chess to be taught to their kids. This must be linked to school curriculums.
As a matter of fact such lobbying has been done and has even had some limited success.
Such lobbying must be an on-going process to generate growing success, not a one time thing that is abandonned at the first difficulty. For it to be successful, the federations must take the leadership in setting teaching standard and training future chess teachers and coaches. Unfortunately I don't see CMA as having done that either in its 25 year existence. As it is, if the education systems come up tomorrow with a large need for qualified people to teach chess (the result of good lobbying) we would be largely unprepared for it. We would have to provide unqualified and untrained people with the risk that chess could afterwards be seen as a much less formative tool than expected.
Last edited by Jean Hébert; Thursday, 5th July, 2012, 04:37 PM.
The use of the phrase "white kids" is where all this prejudice and xenophobia talk is coming from. You've explained it, but it still rings alarm bells. If you change "white kids" to "homegrown kids" and include any kid born in Canada, even those neither white nor anglo-saxon, then you're good.
Didn't think it would cause such a fuss especially as I know people around my age aren't too sensitive about it. But I'll know for next time. It was hard to find a good way to describe because I meant the exact same hockey kids you are referring to. If chess had more of a reputation has a serious competition and not just a boring pastime to play with family then I could get those hockey kids into chess.
Actually, in junior high I got the chess club turned into an optional twice a week class, and the most popular one at that. With just a bit of education I got it filled full, with a good mix although it was mainly athletes + some very pretty girls. I really don't think it's that difficult but we don't have very many motivated people willing to do the job. If you get chess in the schools you will also have a lot more jobs opening up to teach chess. And the money in teaching chess is not bad at all, at least here in the States. There are so many professional coaches. At university I had a legit course last semester called Chess in Education and it was pretty insightful for implementing chess into schools.
Ways must be found to have more parents, regardless of their ethnic backgrounds, pushing for chess to be taught to their kids. This must be linked to school curriculums.
Education is a provincial matter for each province.
Probably the best which could be hoped is extra curricular as it's unlikely things like music would be dropped in favour of chess. Of course, more than 50 years ago it was extra curricular and the attendance was not very good.
Re: Re : Re: Re : Yoo Hoo Chris Mallon and/or Larry Bevand
When I was in Grade 9, our chess coach was extremely close to having a chess class created at our school. Back then, schools had much more flexibility in what they could offer, before the standardized curriculum. Now you have to go at it one of two ways; twist around an existing course offering to fit chess, or try to get some kind of chess course added to the curriculum.
Of course, in Grade 9 we also played chess every day at lunch (hour-long lunches) and 4 days a week after school (for up to 90 minutes). These days, lunches are shorter, and there are also way more non-sport activities for the students that compete with chess.
I'm sure a few people who have been lobbying recently would be surprised to know from you that it has been abandoned!
This was with regard to chess in school curricula. Perhaps lamps have been hidden under bushels. Ignorance is not bliss.
With the apparent ease and success of the CFC Annual Meeting held as an online forum, perhaps a new forum could be created for chess in schools. There would be a thread for each province, but also for specific topics, such as Defi Mathematique. And subjects such as the obvious one that if chess becomes part of the curriculum, it will have to be teachable by existing, "Teachers Federation" teachers, a reality that the creators of Defi Mathematique faced and succeeded in.
With highest regard for CMA / AEM, which trains and provides its own teachers to schools. I am 100% for CFC and CMA cooperating, but perhaps the CFC could carry the ball on this one difficult initiative.
Education is provincial, and it is only with strong provincial chess associations that chess will enter the curricula of more provinces. Yes, I am trying to wear you down by repeating this message a thousand times. Do not resist.
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