Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

It's a shame when a great chess player and personality such as Svetozar Gligoric is being painted with all kinds of colours here. He was the best Serbian and Yugoslav chess player of all times, journalist, chess tournaments organizer, was fluent in several languages, soft-spoken, true legend. In his late years he even composed music and released CDs. That's the man we are talking about here. After reading some of the comments here, I'm under the impression that he is being compared with Nazi soldiers?! For the record, he joined Tito's partisans as a very young man and fought Nazis. Partisans were the best organized anti-nazi force in the region at the time, if they weren't they wouldn't win the war and they wouldn't get much support from the West. After the war, almost every known personality living in Yugoslavia at the time was genuinely supportive of Tito and the system. If they disagreed, they kept their mouth shut, or they moved out of the country. It's that simple. Different times, different era. How about Cuban players playing under the Cuban flag now? Are they all communists and pro-Castro?

A) if they disagreed with Tito they were shot or imprisoned, there is absolutely no basis for Tito being justified as the dictator for life of Yugoslavia, there was the ´Night of the Handcuffs' and the 'Naked Island' in the Adriatic in case you need a reminder
B) they were not the best organized force, the Chetniks returned more allied airmen back to their lines than anyone else, the Partisans were not even close
C) the Partisans spent most of their time running from the Germans
D) they won because the Allies in general won and they were the
´victors´because Churchill was duped and supported the ineffective side as misrepresented by his own agents who were communists, for an example of British intelligence communist infiltration I would refer you to the case of the Cambridge 5. The show trial of Draza Mihailovic at the end of the war was how Tito dealt with his opponents. Mihailovic also fought the Nazis or did you forget that?

I know you like Gligoric, I like Gligoric, we all like Gligoric but please do not try to rehabilitate a corrupt and criminal regime like Tito´s just because you like Gligoric. In a way this shows just how effective Gligoric was in winning support for Tito´s regime. You may be able to portrary Tito as Mr Nice Guy but those of us who had to live under his regime and have family that lived under his regime cannot be so dismissive of his crimes and corruption. Family that could not just leave the country and family that were denied and prevented from basic Red Cross aide after the war just because they were on the wrong side. Family that were mere children and widows. It was nice that Gligoric got to travel when others could not leave the country, it was nice that he received the usual perks reserved for communist party members like an apartment. If you were not a communist party member good luck trying to find a place to live in Belgrade.

Perhaps you would be doing the same with Stalin if you had a Soviet player you particularly liked. Nazis and Communists they are all about the same to me. Their crimes are almost identical. I have no problem comparing Stalin to Hitler or comparing Tito and his regime to other communist despots in eastern Europe. The comment about Nazi party membership and combatant was to explain to a certain obtuse fellow what being part of system is all about. Ask the people of the former Yugoslavia today if they would like a return to a communist regime to bankrupt their country and lead to all out civil war again. Or did you think the civil wars of the 1990´s and the Kosovo situation were just concidences that have nothing to do with Tito´s policies.

Perhaps you like your freedom of speech in Canada, perhaps you like being able to criticize your own government. Perhaps then you can see why it is wrong that people were imprisoned simply because the secret police found out they had simply criticized Tito.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

I doubt any further explanation is necessary as to why Najdorf was not willing to participate in any Alekhine memorials.

He played in 1956.

One of his game (to be on a topic - with S.Gligoric)

[Event "Moscow"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1956.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[White "Miguel Najdorf"]
[Black "Svetozar Gligoric"]
[ECO "E64"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 O-O 5.Nc3 d6 6.Nf3 c5 7.d5 Na6
8.O-O Nc7 9.Nd2 Rb8 10.Qc2 Nd7 11.Rb1 b5 12.cxb5 Nxb5 13.Nxb5
Rxb5 14.b3 Ba6 15.Bb2 Bxb2 16.Rxb2 Rb4 17.Re1 Qc7 18.Qc3 Rfb8
19.Rc2 Qd8 20.Bf1 Nf6 21.e4 Bxf1 22.Kxf1 Rd4 23.f3 Qd7 24.Kg2
Re8 25.Nc4 e6 26.dxe6 Rxe6 27.Rce2 h5 28.h4 Qe7 1/2-1/2

[Sasa Kulic]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

But seriously, what bothers me the most is the fact that this topic was dedicated to a world class chess player, Svetozar Gligoric. I have no clue how you got him mixed up with Tito, Nazis, Stalin, Chetniks, communists, you name them. I assume, you must be personally at war with Tito, and I can understand that. Believe me, I and my family suffered too, due to the complicated matters that happened in the region of the ex-Yugoslavia. But, to blame a chess player for that? I feel, you just felt entitled to comment on this topic, but I fail to find any connection. Why would Gligoric refute any support he was getting from the country he was living in? You may be at war with Tito, but he wasn't. How many people travel daily from Canada to Cuba? Should we blame them too? I mention Cuba just as an example. So let's see. Do you like Castro? I assume you don't, because he could be compared to Tito. OK, so a certain player plays in the Capablanca's memorial every year. Let's blame him, he is a communist supporter, very bad guy. The same goes for all other participants in this tournament, year after year. I hope you understand my sarcasm.

It's pointless to discuss the history of Yugoslavia, even more the current situation in the region. In chess lingo, you know, the position is ∞. I'll still answer, but please let's not carry this on, because we won't get anywhere.

A:
I agree, they were shot or imprisoned, but we are talking about a time right after the WWII and a very possible threat of Soviet invasion. As you know, Stalin tried to assassinate Tito several times. You probably know about Tito's answer: “Comrade Stalin, stop sending your agents to Yugoslavia with the order to kill me. We have already captured seven of your men who had the intention of killing me. If this does not stop, I will be forced to send a man to Moscow and if I do that, it will not be necessary for me to send another”. In that context, how would you expect him to deal with Stalin's supports within his own country. We simply cannot compare that era with 2012, can we? I am sure many people will disagree with you even now. I'll remind you too, Tito's funeral was the largest funeral in history. He was respected in both Cold War blocs, and of course all other countries belonging to the non-aligned movement.

B:
I disagree. Maybe at the beginning of the WWII because, but by 1942 or 43, many of their fractions already collaborated with Germans and Italians. Partisans and Tito were always on the right, anti-nazi side. Partisans were also pro-Yugoslav, which was another reason why they gained support from the Allies.

C: No comment. But read about the seven enemy offensives and partisan resistance in all of them, many times fighting not only against Germans but also Italians, Chetniks, and Ustase. The battle of Neretva is not only a movie, but a real historical fact. German commanders described partisans with these words: ""well organized, skillfully led and with combat morale unbelievably high".

D: Not much to comment about. But we already know, history is written by the victors. Tito and the partisans were victors, and I am sure they won because they were well organized and followed a non-nationalistic idea of uniting Yugoslav people against their occupators. Chetniks on the other hand were nationalists and couldn't care less about other nations in the region.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

But seriously, what bothers me the most is the fact that this topic was dedicated to a world class chess player, Svetozar Gligoric. I have no clue how you got him mixed up with Tito, Nazis, Stalin, Chetniks, communists, you name them. I assume, you must be personally at war with Tito, and I can understand that. Believe me, I and my family suffered too, due to the complicated matters that happened in the region of the ex-Yugoslavia. But, to blame a chess player for that? I feel, you just felt entitled to comment on this topic, but I fail to find any connection. Why would Gligoric refute any support he was getting from the country he was living in? You may be at war with Tito, but he wasn't. How many people travel daily from Canada to Cuba? Should we blame them too? I mention Cuba just as an example. So let's see. Do you like Castro? I assume you don't, because he could be compared to Tito. OK, so a certain player plays in the Capablanca's memorial every year. Let's blame him, he is a communist supporter, very bad guy. The same goes for all other participants in this tournament, year after year. I hope you understand my sarcasm.

It's pointless to discuss the history of Yugoslavia, even more the current situation in the region. In chess lingo, you know, the position is ∞. I'll still answer, but please let's not carry this on, because we won't get anywhere.

A:
I agree, they were shot or imprisoned, but we are talking about a time right after the WWII and a very possible threat of Soviet invasion. As you know, Stalin tried to assassinate Tito several times. You probably know about Tito's answer: “Comrade Stalin, stop sending your agents to Yugoslavia with the order to kill me. We have already captured seven of your men who had the intention of killing me. If this does not stop, I will be forced to send a man to Moscow and if I do that, it will not be necessary for me to send another”. In that context, how would you expect him to deal with Stalin's supports within his own country. We simply cannot compare that era with 2012, can we? I am sure many people will disagree with you even now. I'll remind you too, Tito's funeral was the largest funeral in history. He was respected in both Cold War blocs, and of course all other countries belonging to the non-aligned movement.

B:
I disagree. Maybe at the beginning of the WWII because, but by 1942 or 43, many of their fractions already collaborated with Germans and Italians. Partisans and Tito were always on the right, anti-nazi side. Partisans were also pro-Yugoslav, which was another reason why they gained support from the Allies.

C: No comment. But read about the seven enemy offensives and partisan resistance in all of them, many times fighting not only against Germans but also Italians, Chetniks, and Ustase. The battle of Neretva is not only a movie, but a real historical fact. German commanders described partisans with these words: ""well organized, skillfully led and with combat morale unbelievably high".

D: Not much to comment about. But we already know, history is written by the victors. Tito and the partisans were victors, and I am sure they won because they were well organized and followed a non-nationalistic idea of uniting Yugoslav people against their occupators. Chetniks on the other hand were nationalists and couldn't care less about other nations in the region.

How did Gligoric get involved with all of this? You have no clue apparently that Gligoric was a communist party member and partisan combatant who supported Tito? Yet you still expect me to take your comments seriouisly?

In your second sentence you justify the summary execution without trial of those whose opinion differed from Tito´s. So I take it that if you were an advisor to Tito at the time your advise would have been kill them, kill them all and imprison the rest. You think people should be killed because of their opinions? Many of whom you just praised because many of them were partisans who had fought during WW2 along side all the other partisan forces? The people you just praised for bravely fighting the Nazis, those are the people that in the next breath you justify being murdered? I think you missed your calling, you should have been an organized crime consiglioni. Do you have any proof that they were going to stage a coup against Tito´s absolute right to rule Yugoslavia for life? Even if you have proof of this (which nobody has because there was no such coup) what makes you such a supporter of Tito that you support his absolute right to be the communist ruler for life of Yugoslavia? Sorry I would rather not debate someone who supports a ruthless criminal dictator without question and justifies murder based on his admiration for Gligoric. I guess I will have to though.

The Chetniks were also proYugoslav or did you not know that Yugoslavia was formed by the monarchy following WW1? The communists did not create Yugoslavia they merely took it over. Tito had a big funeral? That´s nice. That was before many of his transgressions came to be widely known. It is easier to hide your crimes and unlimited corruption when you control the state, the secret police and can at will execute your opponents. Time however has revealed the level of crime and corruption more widely.

Thanks for the info on the Battle of Neretva. Boy here I am a Serb and Bosnian born in Yugoslavia and I was sure it was just a movie. Who knew? Thanks for setting me straight. However, I will point out that that the lesson of the battle is that once again the partisans managed to do what? Run away. Did they gain a great victory over the Nazis? No they simply avoided capture. Admitedly with a pretty strategic idea. Do you remember what that idea was? Now you are quoting the Nazis to prove how great the partisans were? Sorry I don´t listen to what the Nazis had to say, I don´t like them. I don´t care to know what they said about Yugoslavs, communists, Jews or Gypsies or anyone else. I´m sure the Nazis were perfectly happy to fight an easy chase me war, game of tag with Tito while their Ustas allies murdered masses of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies in the meantime. What more could the Nazis hope to achieve in Yugoslavia. Mass attrocities and no effective force to counter them such as when they massacred an entire high school, students and teachers. Maybe you could next quote some Mein Kampf to me; I particularly like the parts where Hitler calls all Slavs subhumans who should be eradicated. Tito or Stalin, I can´t see the difference. Fight the Nazis? The partisans couldn´t even effectively fight the regular Yugoslav army. In my hometown a local Chetnik commander famously captured, disarmed and released several hundred partisans by using a simple tactic of pretending to retreat while instead surrounding the partisans. When the partisans got overly excited at their apparent victory and stood up to chase the forces retreating in front of them they were quicly forced to lay down their arms. It would be laughable if not for the fact that it too was not a Hollywood movie.

Of course when Churchill withdrew his support from Mihailovic and gave it to Tito it lead to the Chetniks being starved of resources. The Chetniks were nationalists? An odd charge to make against a group fighting for their country. Yeah of course they were nationalists. Were they instead supposed to support the Ustas Nazi puppet state? The partisans were fighting to turn Yugoslavia communist. That´s all they cared about. As far as Tito was concerned as long as he was able to run away from the Nazis long enough, not worry about trying to stop the Ustas massaces etc. he could have himself appointed as dictator for life of Yugoslavia. As it turns out he also did not want to be allied with any other communist countries so that he had a completely free hand in Yugoslavia to do as he would.

No Gligoric was not at war with Tito, Gligoric fully supported Tito and was part of the system that made communism in Yugoslavia a reality. Gligoric freely took any and all priveleges and benefits this availed him even while knowing that others that were on the wrong side, even though they were infants at the time were marked as enemies of the state for life. Their crime or rather their parents crime? Not wanting Yugoslavia to be communist. How dare they? He did the same that any say Nazi party member would have done had Hitler instead of Tito been victorious or any Vichy regime collaborator would have done or any Soviet communist party member . He was self serving in that regard. Understandable perhaps but not laudable. Unless you think his political ideas were great and we should make Yugoslavia and eastern Europe communist again. Let´s fully implement Gligoric´s political dream again. Amazing the people who had to live under Tito and communism got rid of communism as soon as they could but you who has never had to live a day under Tito`s tyranny heap praise on Tito. Because you like Gligoric? How bizzare. It seems you choose your human rights values in the same way you might choose your chess openings.

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

Nice tie-in, Egidijus!

I wasn't referring to Alekhine Memorial tournaments, I was referring to memorial ceremonies.

Jordan

[Sasa Kulic]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

Let's let the man rest in peace as this topic suggested. I am too busy to get myself involved in this kind of a fruitless discussion.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

Let's let the man rest in peace as this topic suggested. I am too busy to get myself involved in this kind of a fruitless discussion.

Yes RIP Gligoric. Fortunately for you you were not one of those partisan communist party members who wanted to remain allied to the Soviet Union after the Red Army liberated Belgrade. Therefore you got to live to a good old age without being one of those that Sasa thinks Tito was right to murder or imprison. Well done Gligoric.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

oh and for those curiouis about the Battle of Neretva you can maybe find the old movie with Yul Brynner, because when he wasn´t playing a racist, stereotype of the King of Siam or a stereotypical Russian army officer he played a stereotypical Yugoslav partisan, you can also enjoy a heavy Orson Welles playing a heavy heavy as a Chetnik baddie because after he didn´t have Raquel Welsh as his wife he went to pot pretty fast

the cute tactic the partisans used was to blow up a bridge they would have to use to run away from the Nazis, so the Nazis assumed they had them trapped and that they were crazy and so the Nazis thought they could take their time getting to them but then they built a provisory bridge and escaped after all

so there you have it the most famous partisan communist battle as lionized by Hollywood, did they actually battle the Nazis as the title suggests, hardly they just found an even more clever way to run away, look at us we are so clever at running away, and yes there are the usual gratuitous scenes of Yugoslav soldiers singing in battle, something they hardly invented as Serb Chetniks did this during WW1 even before Yugoslavia ever existed with the song Tamo da Leko or There Over There, which Tito promptly banned upon coming to power, imagine banning a song that simply is about longing to be back in your own village with your own love of your life

[Sasa Kulic]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

As said, I don't want to discuss matters that are widely known, but instead let me quote english Wikipedia, which I believe is generally a neutral source:

About Tito Partisans running away from Germans:

Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") use military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare

Notice, "withdraw immediately". They weren't that stupid to openly engage the mighty German army.

During the battle, the Partisans were caught in a pocket with their backs to the Neretva river. On their - western - side, were German forces, including several elite units and supported by panzer brigades. The eastern side (opposite the Partisan pocket) was guarded only by Chetnik formations, who were acting in coordination with the Germans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_White

So Chetnik formations where on the side of Nazis, i.e. an enemy that deserved to be punished, expelled from the country, imprisoned, you name it.


Of course Tito was a controversial figure, but at least one thing you cannot deny, a quote again:

Despite being one of the founders of Cominform, he was also the first (and the only successful) Cominform member to defy Soviet hegemony. A backer of independent roads to socialism (sometimes referred to as, although incorrectly, "national communism" or more correctly "Titoism", he was one of the main founders and promoters of the Non-Aligned Movement, and its first Secretary-General. He supported the policy of nonalignment between the two hostile blocs in the Cold War. Such successful diplomatic and economic policies allowed Tito to preside over the Yugoslav economic boom and expansion of the 1960s and 1970s. His internal policies included the suppression of nationalist sentiment and the promotion of the "brotherhood and unity" of the six Yugoslav nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

[Sasa Kulic]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

Also, regarding the liberation of Belgrade. Soviet army assisted Yugoslav Partisans, they didn't liberate it without the joint efforts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade_Offensive

Allies:
Yugoslavia Partisans
Soviet Union
Bulgaria

Axis:
Germany
Chetniks
Government of National Salvation

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

I don't consider Wikpedia to be an objective nor necessarily accurate source for history.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

I don't consider Wikpedia to be an objective nor necessarily accurate source for history.

Why not? If its not objective you can always edit it to reflect your own version of history.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

Also, regarding the liberation of Belgrade. Soviet army assisted Yugoslav Partisans, they didn't liberate it without the joint efforts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade_Offensive

Allies:
Yugoslavia Partisans
Soviet Union
Bulgaria

Axis:
Germany
Chetniks
Government of National Salvation

Really you are comparing the partisans who you already admitted would never actually fight the Nazis directly to the mighty Soviet Red Army that liberated all of eastern Europe? That would be like the French claiming joint liberation of Paris after DDay. Just the numbers of the military forces involved and the difference in equipment such as tanks, planes etc should tell you who really liberated Yugoslavia. In any case my point was that there were reasons that Yugoslav partisans might have been feeling grateful to the Soviets and wanted to continue the joint alliance and efforts. According to you and Tito they deserved to die for that opinion.

PS If you are feeling really generous you might say the Soviets were assisted by the Partisans, not the other way around.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

As said, I don't want to discuss matters that are widely known, but instead let me quote english Wikipedia, which I believe is generally a neutral source:

About Tito Partisans running away from Germans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare

Notice, "withdraw immediately". They weren't that stupid to openly engage the mighty German army.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_White

So Chetnik formations where on the side of Nazis, i.e. an enemy that deserved to be punished, expelled from the country, imprisoned, you name it.


Of course Tito was a controversial figure, but at least one thing you cannot deny, a quote again:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

english Wikipedia is neutral because it is Wikipedia or because it is in English? you really don't have the maturity to know by now that neutral and peace are two words that you can hardly ever use in discussing anything in the Balkans?

It seems that for somone who gets his history from Wikipedia a civil war at the same time as a world war could be confusing so let me clarify for you. The Chetniks were happy to fight both the Nazis and the Communists. Both were the enemy that should be eliminated from the country. Which they eliminated first was of minor importance. In hind sight I have to say they were quite right to want to eliminate Tito. If the Chetniks knew the Communists were being pursured by the Nazis on one side of the river they were happy to fight the communists on the other side of the river. Whether they found out by themselves or the Nazis happend to tell them is part of the murky world of military intelligence. The Nazis were not unhappy that the Chetniks and partisans were fighting each other. So if they helped matters along by passing intelligence on to either the partisans or Chetniks about each other so they would fight each other more, that was very much to the Nazis benefit. The Chetnik troops were not integrated with the Nazi troops nor did they fight as combined forces or under combined command. You still have made no comment on how the alleged Nazi collaborating Chetniks happened to return more Allied airmen to their own lines to fight again than any other force in WW2 fits in with your allegation of collaboration. Collaborators do not return Allies to their own lines. Collaborators kill them or turn them over to the Nazis. Like the Ustas did. Those returned airmen did more to fight the Nazis than the sum total of anything that the partisans managed to do. Dropping bombs on German cities was way more effective.

The Communists felt the same way about the Chetniks as far as eliminating them too. They attempted to assasinate Chetnik commanders, attacked Chetnik forces etc. all the while diminishing their own effectiveness against the Nazis who you have pointed out they would not face directly. That's the nature of a civil war/world war at the same time. At the very beginning of the war the Communists and Chetniks did combine forces and in fact had joint commanders together whether the troops were partisan or Chetnik. That quickly ended when it became obvious to the Chetniks that all the partisans wanted was power for themselves. Even when the partisans faced the Nazis indirectly their clumsiness only lead to mass attrocities by the Nazis such as the mass execution of an entire high school in retribution for a partisan attack on a convoy. Those were the same Nazis who you quoted as admiring the fighting ability of the partisans - we admire their fighting ability but we are still going to kill their children? Does not compute.

You also have not explained why Tito had an absolute right to rule Yugoslavia for life. Yes Tito broke away from an alliance with Stalin. Tito did this because he he did not want to have his own power diminished in any way and just like Stalin would murder or imprison anyone who got in the way of this. But we've already established that you support Tito's crimes in doing that. He also tried to play big man on the world stage for example by lending money to African nations that was never paid back, worsening economic conditions in Yugoslavia ultimately leading to the most recent civil wars in Yugoslavia, or rather former Yugoslavia. The amount of corruption with the Communists enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else in Yugoslavia is sickening. Do you know for example how many prime hunting lodges, retreats that Tito had reserved and maintained just for his own personal use. More than he could ever use in twenty life times even if all he did was visit all his properties.

[Sasa Kulic]

Re: Svetozar Gligoric - RIP

Really you are comparing the partisans who you already admitted would never actually fight the Nazis directly to the mighty Soviet Red Army that liberated all of eastern Europe? That would be like the French claiming joint liberation of Paris after DDay. Just the numbers of the military forces involved and the difference in equipment such as tanks, planes etc should tell you who really liberated Yugoslavia. In any case my point was that there were reasons that Yugoslav partisans might have been feeling grateful to the Soviets and wanted to continue the joint alliance and efforts. According to you and Tito they deserved to die for that opinion.

PS If you are feeling really generous you might say the Soviets were assisted by the Partisans, not the other way around.

Simple, they did start with the guerrilla warfare, but by '44 or '45 things changed, they got more support from the Allies and Soviets, organized themselves, gained strength, and were able to change their strategy. Germans (and Chetniks if I may notice) on the other hand lost their strength. I think Partisans should have been grateful to the Soviets, but not to the degree to which they would allow Soviets to occupy their country. All I am saying, I am glad I didn't have to live in an Eastern Bloc country. Yugoslavia was independent and free, its citizens could travel wherever they wanted, enjoyed a relatively good life, and were not oppressed, as it was the case in countries such as DDR or Czechoslovakia. I can only thank Tito for that.