Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

[Geordie Derraugh]

I seem to remember reading about this at some point but I can't remember where, or what the consensus was. A quick google search proved fruitless, so naturally I'm turning to the wisdom of chesstalk :)

Consider a situation in which one player is using a Monroi device and his opponent isn't. The player with the device is continually staring at it, most likely calculating variations (I've done this at times myself, and seen others do it). Given that the opponent does not have this option, should this be allowed?

Many of my students have told me they calculate much better when looking at a screen. Not just kids, but adults as well.

I can see why it may be considered an advantage but I don't see anything in the rules to prevent it.

Anyone want to weigh in on this?

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Maybe not yet - but soon! Its only a matter of time before someone implants an effective chess engine into the device. And if it's well concealed, no TD or arbiter may be able to spot its use.

[Andy Shaw]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

I know of at least one individual who has used his monroi device to calculate variations. He would put a variation in his monroi then look at it and then scroll back to the original position.

[Matthew Scott]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

I calculate better on a screen than over the board (I'm a young adult - I've played far more chess online or on screen than over the board), and I have used a Monroi machine once (in the 2010 Canadian Open). I did not use it for calculation purposes there, but conceivably, I could have.

I guess my view of things is this: If someone wants to cheat, they're going to cheat. Admittedly I don't take tournaments as seriously as some folk (I mean, I play to win, but it is just for fun at the end of the day), but where do you draw the line? It would be pretty easy to excuse yourself and go talk with someone or go to your car or wherever and run a position through an engine if you wanted to. Maybe this is a little more transparent than using a Monroi machine, but I would think the person staring at the Monroi machine would be a pretty good indicator that something abnormal is going on.

There's a fundamental balance to be struck between convenience and security. Having Monroi machines increases the exposure of the game, particularly where there are live feeds. They also save time by not making people copy things down by hand only to put them into a computer later. I don't think this technology is about to go away, whether people like them or not. It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually reach a day where they are as standard as chess clocks.

In short, while I understand there are legitimate concerns and possible abuses, I don't think the answer is to ban them - it seems analogous to standing on a beach at low tide and proclaiming that the tide shall not come in. The best way to deal with progress is to try and address the actual problems (e.g.: incentives to cheat) as opposed to the symptoms (e.g.: another possible way to do it). This is reinforced by any subtle advantage that might be gained calculation wise could be eliminated if the other player chooses to also use a Monroi device.

[Geordie Derraugh]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Let me clarify that I'm not talking about using the device to cheat or actually input variations. I'm talking about the situation where a player is simply using the 2-dimensional screen as a "visual aid" and inputting moves normally.

[Matthew Scott]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Let me clarify that I'm not talking about using the device to cheat or actually input variations. I'm talking about the situation where a player is simply using the 2-dimensional screen as a "visual aid" and inputting moves normally.

Can you really split the difference there though? If it is possible to do the things mentioned, it's completely possible that by allowing them some players will do this.

In any case, I don't think my answer changes - they should be allowed.

[Evan Frangakis]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Here's a real life situation: one player is using monroi and steps away from the room with the device. Firstly, is this permitted, and secondly, doesn't this create the potential for cheating? Beyond the capabilities of the device itself couldn't the player in question show the position on the device to one of his highly rated friends for feedback?

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Here's a real life situation: one player is using monroi and steps away from the room with the device. Firstly, is this permitted, and secondly, doesn't this create the potential for cheating? Beyond the capabilities of the device itself couldn't the player in question show the position on the device to one of his highly rated friends for feedback?

I would hope that taking the Monroi device out of the playing area would be considered the same as making notes... and it should be prohibited, but leaving an expensive device on the table while one takes a bathroom break would be rather trusting?

Everyone should understand that when the Monroi is in 'record game mode' (no idea what their terminology is...) the device is locked down so that other software cannot be run - ie: you cannot just "alt-tab" and run something else. Having said that, any device is hackable at some level, although I rather doubt anyone has hacked a Monroi (if they did, they likely would not talk about it!)

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Let me clarify that I'm not talking about using the device to cheat or actually input variations. I'm talking about the situation where a player is simply using the 2-dimensional screen as a "visual aid" and inputting moves normally.

Geordie, If you think about it, the situation has existed for a hundred years.
What you describe is little different from a player studying his game on the demo board and no one has ever objected to that!

[Matthew Scott]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Geordie, If you think about it, the situation has existed for a hundred years.
What you describe is little different from a player studying his game on the demo board and no one has ever objected to that!

That's allowed?

[Evan Frangakis]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

I would hope that taking the Monroi device out of the playing area would be considered the same as making notes... and it should be prohibited, but leaving an expensive device on the table while one takes a bathroom break would be rather trusting?

Everyone should understand that when the Monroi is in 'record game mode' (no idea what their terminology is...) the device is locked down so that other software cannot be run - ie: you cannot just "alt-tab" and run something else. Having said that, any device is hackable at some level, although I rather doubt anyone has hacked a Monroi (if they did, they likely would not talk about it!)

I am not at all familiar with the monroi device, that's why I was unsure of the proper protocol. It did not concern me too much in this instance, as the youngster I was playing is well known and his reputation has never been questioned. I assumed that he took the device for the reason you mentioned. (unsafe to leave it on the table?). Still, the thought did cross my mind that unscrupulous folks might find a way to gain an unfair advantage with the device. Even showing the position to someone for expert input could result in a decisive advantage, without actually using the functions of the device -locked down or not. I am curious to hear from the arbiters in the audience-what is standard policy?

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Would someone be allowed to take a paper scoresheet with them away from the game?

It sounds very suspicious when you put it that way, and it should be treated no differently just because it's an electronic scoresheet. I would like to think that if someone tried swiping a Monroi off a table that other people would notice and perhaps speak up! Not to mention there really aren't all that many of them, and anytime you use it at an event the serial # of the device is noted by the software.

EDIT: I forgot to answer the actual question. The scoresheet must be visible to the arbiter at all times.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

That's allowed?

Fischer once agreed to let his clock run in pitch blackness - the power went out and his opponent (was it Petrosian?) claimed it wasn't fair to stop the clocks, since Fischer would be analysing the board in his head!

[Evan Frangakis]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Would someone be allowed to take a paper scoresheet with them away from the game?

It sounds very suspicious when you put it that way, and it should be treated no differently just because it's an electronic scoresheet. I would like to think that if someone tried swiping a Monroi off a table that other people would notice and perhaps speak up! Not to mention there really aren't all that many of them, and anytime you use it at an event the serial # of the device is noted by the software.

EDIT: I forgot to answer the actual question. The scoresheet must be visible to the arbiter at all times.

That's my feeling too Chris. In fact, it's worse with the monroi because you can readily visualize the board position. A possible option: Hand the monroi to the arbiter on his way out of the room?

[Geordie Derraugh]

Re: Could using a Monroi device be considered an unfair advantage?

Geordie, If you think about it, the situation has existed for a hundred years.
What you describe is little different from a player studying his game on the demo board and no one has ever objected to that!

Hi Vlad,

The main difference I see is that the display board is visible to both players, whereas only one player has access to the monroi in most cases.


I do think the Monroi device (or live broadcast in general) is good for chess and it adds a lot to an event. I'm not suggesting that Monroi devices be banned. From an arbiter's standpoint, I'm just curious if there are grounds to tell a player not to constantly stare at their device, since its purpose is to be used as a scoresheet.

Basically, my question can be broken into two parts. Is it possible for a person's "screen calculation ability" to exceed their "OTB calculation ability" (my personal opinion is that it is). If so, then is it not an unfair advantage to have access to a 2D screen while your opponent doesn't, and what can be done about it?

I don't think this is a major issue as I can't imagine it having a huge effect, and I can also think of some drawbacks to staring at the monroi screen, for example not being as aware of the clock times... But I do think it's an interesting topic for discussion, and it came up today at the Hart House tournament.