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USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
USCF three fold repetition rule different than CFC, FIDE
I had a strange situation in the FIDE rated Michigan Open. My opponent a 2200 player made his move on the board and then claimed a draw by repetition of position without pressing his clock. Under CFC and FIDE rules this would be denied under my understanding as the correct procedure is to summon the TD, write the move on your scoresheet and claim the draw before making the move. At one time this was the rule in the USCF as well as I have run into this situation before.
The question then is whether if I had made a move this would have invalidated his claim. I was surprised at the mechanics of the claim and the TD showed me the relevant section in the USCF rulebook and it seemed to support his method of claiming it as being valid. I also thought that a tournament had to follow FIDE rules in order to be FIDE rated. I guess not.
I had a strange situation in the FIDE rated Michigan Open. My opponent a 2200 player made his move on the board and then claimed a draw by repetition of position without pressing his clock. Under CFC and FIDE rules this would be denied under my understanding as the correct procedure is to summon the TD, write the move on your scoresheet and claim the draw before making the move. At one time this was the rule in the USCF as well as I have run into this situation before.
The question then is whether if I had made a move this would have invalidated his claim. I was surprised at the mechanics of the claim and the TD showed me the relevant section in the USCF rulebook and it seemed to support his method of claiming it as being valid. I also thought that a tournament had to follow FIDE rules in order to be FIDE rated. I guess not.
I had a strange situation in the FIDE rated Michigan Open. My opponent a 2200 player made his move on the board and then claimed a draw by repetition of position without pressing his clock. Under CFC and FIDE rules this would be denied under my understanding as the correct procedure is to summon the TD, write the move on your scoresheet and claim the draw before making the move. At one time this was the rule in the USCF as well as I have run into this situation before.
The question then is whether if I had made a move this would have invalidated his claim. I was surprised at the mechanics of the claim and the TD showed me the relevant section in the USCF rulebook and it seemed to support his method of claiming it as being valid. I also thought that a tournament had to follow FIDE rules in order to be FIDE rated. I guess not.
The draw claim by your opponent was invalid as soon as he touched a piece. Interestingly enough, one of the proposed changes to the laws of chess would make his claim valid, but under the current rules, you would have grounds to appeal this decision with FIDE.
The draw claim by your opponent was invalid as soon as he touched a piece. Interestingly enough, one of the proposed changes to the laws of chess would make his claim valid, but under the current rules, you would have grounds to appeal this decision with FIDE.
Exactly, it is a FIDE-rated event and one of the FIDE rules is that in a FIDE-rated event, FIDE rules must be used/take precedence (I forget the exact wording and no time to look it up right now).
I had a strange situation in the FIDE rated Michigan Open. My opponent a 2200 player made his move on the board and then claimed a draw by repetition of position without pressing his clock. Under CFC and FIDE rules this would be denied under my understanding as the correct procedure is to summon the TD, write the move on your scoresheet and claim the draw before making the move. At one time this was the rule in the USCF as well as I have run into this situation before.
The question then is whether if I had made a move this would have invalidated his claim. I was surprised at the mechanics of the claim and the TD showed me the relevant section in the USCF rulebook and it seemed to support his method of claiming it as being valid. I also thought that a tournament had to follow FIDE rules in order to be FIDE rated. I guess not.
A couple of questions - I assume it was declared a draw due to 3-fold repetition?
Were you in a position to win ( just curious since that has no bearing on the validity of the claim AFAIK)
A couple of questions - I assume it was declared a draw due to 3-fold repetition?
Were you in a position to win ( just curious since that has no bearing on the validity of the claim AFAIK)
The TD did rule it a three fold repetition. I did raise the objection that the tournament was FIDE rated and should follow FIDE rules.
It wasn't entirely clear but it was probably a win. I was unaware that the position had been repeated a third time because the first instance was a few moves earlier and had occurred with a different move from the second two. My blood sugar was acting up after five or so hours of play and I carelessly lost a pawn that made it a harder possible win. I was up two pawns with one being a d pawn on the sixth rank and the other being an h-pawn on the fourth rank. My next move would have been to move the h-pawn to the fifth rank to prevent any further repetitions. I then would have approached the d pawn with my king and He had one rook passively in front of the pawn and the other behind the pawn while I had two rooks defending along the sixth rank on either side.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Tuesday, 4th September, 2012, 07:27 PM.
The draw claim by your opponent was invalid as soon as he touched a piece. Interestingly enough, one of the proposed changes to the laws of chess would make his claim valid, but under the current rules, you would have grounds to appeal this decision with FIDE.
How would an appeal work given that the game was discontinued? Presumably the game can't be declared a win. A complicating factor is that the player went to the TD and asked her how the mechanics of a three fold repetition claim should be made and she may have given him incorrect advice based on the USCF rulebook.
I'm not sure if the opponent was FIDE rated or not. [EDIT actually he is FIDE rated]. If not then the only damage is about 16 points to my USCF rating being the difference between the points I gained for the draw and what I would have gained if I had won. If I had won I would have played a better player in the third round and not entered the Yoyo effect. That's what I get for not playing in Toronto.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Tuesday, 4th September, 2012, 08:11 PM.
The TD did rule it a three fold repetition. I did raise the objection that the tournament was FIDE rated and should follow FIDE rules.
It wasn't entirely clear but it was probably a win. I was unaware that the position had been repeated a third time because the first instance was a few moves earlier and had occurred with a different move from the second two. My blood sugar was acting up after five or so hours of play and I carelessly lost a pawn that made it a harder possible win. I was up two pawns with one being a d pawn on the sixth rank and the other being an h-pawn on the fourth rank. My next move would have been to move the h-pawn to the fifth rank to prevent any further repetitions. I then would have approached the d pawn with my king and He had one rook passively in front of the pawn and the other behind the pawn while I had two rooks defending along the sixth rank on either side.
Wow. Remind me to never play with you.
Three fold repetition is not a technicality. It's an actual game play rule. The construct of how you declare such a rule is a technicality.
Three fold repetition is not a technicality. It's an actual game play rule. The construct of how you declare such a rule is a technicality.
You like getting in arguments, apparently. If you fail to claim it in the correct manner then your claim should be successful according to you. Interesting idea...
I am more interested in what the FIDE arbiters have to say about the situation and they have weighed in to support my understanding of the rules.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Tuesday, 4th September, 2012, 08:34 PM.
Matthew Scott playing with Vlad Drkulec is something hopefully Mankind will never have to be privy to.
Congratulations on your world junior IM norm! Mark Bluvstein spoke quite highly of you back at the 2010 CYCC in Windsor. You've come a long way since then.
Congratulations on your world junior IM norm! Mark Bluvstein spoke quite highly of you back at the 2010 CYCC in Windsor. You've come a long way since then.
Thanks very much Vlad! I was stuck at a plateau for awhile, and recently I guess the studying has finally paid off. Onwards and upwards :)
Thanks very much Vlad! I was stuck at a plateau for awhile, and recently I guess the studying has finally paid off. Onwards and upwards :)
You are welcome and I look forward to many more successes from you.
Some quotes that I have found on the topic of plateaus:
A chess talent develops by jumps. Now and then an incubation period occurs, when newly gained insights are internalized, and it takes time before this is expressed in achievements.
- Karel and Merijn van Delft, "Developing Chess Talent".
To take the master's journey, you have to practice diligently, striving to hone your skills, to attain new levels of competence. But while doing so - and this is the inexorable fact of the journey - you have to be willing to spend most of your time on a plateau, to keep practicing even when you seem to be getting nowhere. - George Leonard, "Mastery".
Practice, the path of Mastery exists only in the present. You can see it, hear it, smell it, feel it. To love the plateau is to love the eternal now, to enjoy the inevitable spurts of progress and the fruits of accomplishment, then serenely to accept the new plateau that waits just beyond them. To love the plateau is to love what is most essential and enduring in your life. - George Leonard, "Mastery".
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