interesting approach to draw offers

[Aris Marghetis]

Between arbitrating Olympiad rounds here in Turkey, I have also dropped into a few FIDE meetings, especially the ones on new rules proposals. At one of them, we met up with Stephen Boyd, ex-pat from Canada, representing the national chess federation of France.

Before I explain what they have been doing for about a year now (if memory serves), in my humble opinion, the two most irritating things in chess right now, have to do with draws :

1) "premature" (this word intended even for non-short games) draws by "mutual agreement"
2) annoying repeat draw offers (in my experience, mostly kids, but anyone low-etiquette)

Well, the chess federation of France came out swinging at these issues, and they have BANNED DRAW OFFERS. At first read, one wonders WHAT?! However, it actually seems to be "working" in certain ways. Their stats, still in the works, are confirming that there are less draws, that games tend to get played out more. If players really want to draw, they can engineer a 3-fold-rep, but what they are finding in France is that players often change their mind once the 3-fold-rep is getting built, especially if it is an unnatural contrived one, as players spot a subtlety that makes them change their mind. I guess there is probably also some new pressure to win rather than just draw, in order to keep up with player Jones.

This new rule of BANNED DRAW OFFERS also completely obliterates inappropriate draw offers. If I remember correctly, most TDs are penalizing them like they would for illegal moves (2 minutes each for the opponent, for the first 2 times, then forfeit for 3rd time).

The only "disadvantage", if considered that, is that more games take longer to finish. That does not mean they take TOO long, but an increase in average total game time, which is intuitively very understandable. I have noticed similar lesser effects with the usual 30-move no-draw-offer rule, as in effect at the Olympiad. Sure, there have been a few 3-fold-rep draws before move 30, but I have seen players abort such sequences more often than just blindly and faithfully settling for an early draw when their teammates have long ways to go.

Anyway, it took me a few hours to get my head around this, and the French are building a case study for FIDE, for future consideration, but I think I like BANNED DRAW OFFERS! ;)

I am interested in what TDs and players think, especially players in the 1800-2200 range.

All the best, Aris in Istanbul.

[Claude Carrier]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Since when are organisers and arbiters more important than players?
Keep chasing after cheaters budy.

[Matthew Scott]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Between arbitrating Olympiad rounds here in Turkey, I have also dropped into a few FIDE meetings, especially the ones on new rules proposals. At one of them, we met up with Stephen Boyd, ex-pat from Canada, representing the national chess federation of France.

Before I explain what they have been doing for about a year now (if memory serves), in my humble opinion, the two most irritating things in chess right now, have to do with draws :

1) "premature" (this word intended even for non-short games) draws by "mutual agreement"
2) annoying repeat draw offers (in my experience, mostly kids, but anyone low-etiquette)

Well, the chess federation of France came out swinging at these issues, and they have BANNED DRAW OFFERS. At first read, one wonders WHAT?! However, it actually seems to be "working" in certain ways. Their stats, still in the works, are confirming that there are less draws, that games tend to get played out more. If players really want to draw, they can engineer a 3-fold-rep, but what they are finding in France is that players often change their mind once the 3-fold-rep is getting built, especially if it is an unnatural contrived one, as players spot a subtlety that makes them change their mind. I guess there is probably also some new pressure to win rather than just draw, in order to keep up with player Jones.

This new rule of BANNED DRAW OFFERS also completely obliterates inappropriate draw offers. If I remember correctly, most TDs are penalizing them like they would for illegal moves (2 minutes each for the opponent, for the first 2 times, then forfeit for 3rd time).

The only "disadvantage", if considered that, is that more games take longer to finish. That does not mean they take TOO long, but an increase in average total game time, which is intuitively very understandable. I have noticed similar lesser effects with the usual 30-move no-draw-offer rule, as in effect at the Olympiad. Sure, there have been a few 3-fold-rep draws before move 30, but I have seen players abort such sequences more often than just blindly and faithfully settling for an early draw when their teammates have long ways to go.

Anyway, it took me a few hours to get my head around this, and the French are building a case study for FIDE, for future consideration, but I think I like BANNED DRAW OFFERS! ;)

I am interested in what TDs and players think, especially players in the 1800-2200 range.

All the best, Aris in Istanbul.

Why is proposing a draw when you are losing, even if it is multiple times, inappropriate? I mean, obviously you must still comply with the general player behaviour rules, but assuming you do that, how is it any different than a weaker side being prepared to agree to terms numerous times while a more powerful side is not.

It seems like the proposal is addressing symptoms as opposed to actual problems. If people are not behaving ethically or courteously, they should be taught manners. I was stunned at the inappropriate behaviour from an older adult at the Milton Active a couple weekends ago when, after losing his final match, he refused to shake hands and stormed off. When questioned about it by me, he told me to, and I quote, "Fuck off". How do we expect children to behave courteously and with good manners when their role models are acting like children? This is not the only such example I've came across in my limited tournament experience, but it is illustrative.

As to the proposition that games are drawn too early or by mutual agreement, this should be at the player's discretion. There are a variety of reasons why one might wish to draw a position, and there's really no sensible reason why it should be banned. Even if you lose a tournament by a half point - had you done better in your other games this would not have occurred. Further, how is it any less legitimate than losing a tournament because of half point byes?

For the vast majority of people playing Chess in Canada, we are talking about pretty low stakes and consequences things.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

There was a guy (from Turkey?) a year or two ago who wanted to ban "resigning" as well. He even organized a match with Karpov & someone under those rules.

I don't really see the point of forcing the players to engineer an artificial 3 time repetition, or forcing the game to play on to stalemate in what the players consider to be an equal position.

[Claude Carrier]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Guys this could be a trick, the french are the best at cheating, the more rules the better.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Why is proposing a draw when you are losing, even if it is multiple times, inappropriate?

Multiple times under such circumstances is begging.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Why is proposing a draw when you are losing, even if it is multiple times, inappropriate?

Priceless. Weren't you just lecturing me on poor sportsmanship on another thread?

[Aman Hambleton]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Why is proposing a draw when you are losing, even if it is multiple times, inappropriate? I mean, obviously you must still comply with the general player behaviour rules, but assuming you do that, how is it any different than a weaker side being prepared to agree to terms numerous times while a more powerful side is not.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Why is proposing a draw when you are losing, even if it is multiple times, inappropriate? .

because it is illegal to offer "unreasonable" draws. Article. 12.6. The arbiter may choose to penalize anything from a warning up to forfeiting the games.

"12.6


It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims, unreasonable offers of a draw or the introduction of a source of noise into the playing area."

You may wish to read: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/geurt162.pdf

[Matthew Scott]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

because it is illegal to offer "unreasonable" draws. Article. 12.6. The arbiter may choose to penalize anything from a warning up to forfeiting the games.

"12.6


It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims, unreasonable offers of a draw or the introduction of a source of noise into the playing area."

You may wish to read: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/geurt162.pdf

Maybe you missed the point of my post where I said, "obviously you need to comply with behavioural rules".

Of course, it's much easier to just read what you want to read.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Maybe you missed the point of my post where I said, "obviously you need to comply with behavioural rules".

Of course, it's much easier to just read what you want to read.

Maybe you missed the point that offering a draw, especially multiple times, when you are clearly losing, is unreasonable.

[Matthew Scott]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Maybe you missed the point that offering a draw, especially multiple times, when you are clearly losing, is unreasonable.

Where did I say the player was "clearly losing"? I said, "even when losing", which suggests a spectrum.

Beyond that point though, how do you even define "clearly losing"? Is that down a pawn? What about a piece? How do you compensate for initiative or attacking chances?

Furthermore, there are a ton of situations where, even in a losing position, you may be able to create threats of perpetual check or such things. Is this unreasonable in your mind as well?

The reality is, unless you are engaging in an activity that is somehow counter to the rules (e.g.: not following the general principles of decorum or being inappropriate), you cannot realistically prohibit (or object to) someone proposing draws.

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Here is what I would propose about draw offers: Rework the chess clocks to include an additional "draw offer" button.

The organizers may include several restrictive criteria about draw offers: minimum number of moves that must be played before an offer is allowed; minimum number of moves between draw offers to avoid pestering. The clock would have settings that allow the organisers' conditions to be met.

When a player wants to offer a draw, he makes his move, presses his clock, and then presses his draw offer button. If the opposing player agrees to the draw, he then stops the clocks by pressing his draw offer button as well. If he wishes to decline the draw offer, then he makes his move, presses his clock, and the game continues.

If the minimum number of moves has not yet been met (either from the start of the game or between draw offers), then pressing the draw offer button will have no effect.

Just ideas...

[Brad Thomson]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

Aris, to answer your question from the perspective of 1800 players, does anyone really care if we draw, early or not? Is it not the games on the top boards that are the issue? Because fans have this odd sense of entitlement that does not in reality exist?

A perfectly played chess game will always end in a draw. Draws will always be a part of chess. Everyone should relax and accept this fact, and enjoy the vast number of exciting, decisive games (games which by definition must have at least one blunder) that take place.

If chess is really serious about reducing draws it will move to Fischerandom. Then the 30 move rule would not even be needed. :)

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: interesting approach to draw offers

If chess is really serious about reducing draws it will move to Fischerandom.

What about perfectly played game? Does any side have more benefit in Fischerandom than in a standard starting position?