The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

Hi Roger:

As long as FIDE maintained a separate, parallel women's system, CFC would consent to any woman going to play in any female FIDE event that they would qualify for.

The whole point of the exercise is not to restrict the individual liberty of Canadian women/girl chess players, but to discourage participation in a separate women's system by taking away the formal infrastructure in Canada of that system.

But CFC would not authorize any formal " representative " to a female tournament.

So, for example, Canada would not take up the option of sending a woman to the Women's World Championship as Canadian Women's Champion, and without that, no Canadian women would be able to gain entry on their own personal initiative, into the Women's World Championship.

The CYCC would be a different matter re the female categories, because FIDE allows any girl junior to play who has consent of a national federation. They will pay all their own expenses, and will not be entitled to the " official " representative free board and lodging.

Bob A

Bob, please remove me from the list of supporters of the CCC. I am all for chess reform and improved chess democracy but I really don't want to be associated with any organization that would seek to limit the opportunities of half the kids that I am coaching in such a draconian manner purely out of a sense of inflated political correctness.

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Precisely my feelings, Bindi. And by way of concrete example, I would strongly recommend to Harmony Zhu's parents (whom I see most Mondays at the ACC) that she not only forego the CYCC U8 Girls next year, but also the CYCC U8 Open. She's too strong for that as well. She should clearly play up in age if she wants to best hone her chess skills. If she continues to tack on rating points, she might even consider playing up 2 age categories and playing in the CYCC U12 Open.

If she continues to tack on rating points and becomes a force to be reckoned with, I would suggest you tell her parents to play the CYCC U8 boys. Even thuogh she might outclass her competition, just the fact that a girl is able to play in the boys section will allow other girls to see that it's possible to do so. Plus, the fame will help her as well.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

Something else to consider: before putting the kibosh on the CFC's (would 'minimal' be a good adjective here?) efforts in the area of women's chess, wouldn't it be a good idea to talk in detail with people who actually should know something about women's/girl's chess and its future prospects? For instance, I expect Larry Bevand could provide a lot of useful information for the CFC to consider. And what about someone like John Coleman, from Windsor, who has had a lot of experience and success organizing school events? Or how about someone like Hans Jung who has had decades of experience teaching chess to children? I'm sure there must dozens if not scores more out there who could provide the CFC with much valuable advice on how the CFC might best use its limited resources in order to be more effective in promoting children's (yes, that includes girls too) chess. Instead, Bob, your approach is to smash what little "infrastructure" now exists. Why? What's really driving this project of yours?

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

Hi Roger:

As long as FIDE maintained a separate, parallel women's system, CFC would consent to any woman going to play in any female FIDE event that they would qualify for.

The whole point of the exercise is not to restrict the individual liberty of Canadian women/girl chess players, but to discourage participation in a separate women's system by taking away the formal infrastructure in Canada of that system.

But CFC would not authorize any formal " representative " to a female tournament.

So, for example, Canada would not take up the option of sending a woman to the Women's World Championship as Canadian Women's Champion, and without that, no Canadian women would be able to gain entry on their own personal initiative, into the Women's World Championship.

The CYCC would be a different matter re the female categories, because FIDE allows any girl junior to play who has consent of a national federation. They will pay all their own expenses, and will not be entitled to the " official " representative free board and lodging.

Bob A

Bob, I agree with Roger. Your stance on this issue is appalling.

It's disturbing when people propose to make important decisions but don't appear to have many facts at their disposal. For example, what exactly is this "infrastructure" you talk about and how much is it costing the CFC annually? (I'm guessing the CFC doesn't have a lot of skin in this game) Has anyone bothered to talk to female chess players and/or their parents to see what they'd like?

You say you don't want to restrict the liberty of female chess players and yet you want to enact something that ensures that no Canadian female will ever be allowed to play for FIDE's women's world championship.

Let's see some facts!

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

An old news from Ashley Tapp

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2012/10/18/chess-prodigy-ashley-tapp-wants-more-girls-to-play

Along with her best friend Lilly Harrison the pair used the occasion to launch their own social cause — a foundation supporting chess-playing girls — and reach out to possible sponsors willing to support more girls endeavouring to compete against the world’s best.

Those interested in helping Tapp and the Chess Foundation for the Education and Wellness for Girls can find out more at ashleychessgirl.com.

imho, there are more (percentage) women in organizing chess than playing.

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Just for the record, I don't want to see female only events being banned from chess. I just want parents, coaches, tournament organizers and whoever else is involved to encourage female participation in open tournaments. Right now, I'm assuming that most parents are happy if their daughter wins an age group sectional like the ones they have at CYCC but it's important to realize that most boys of similar ages on average, have to aim for a 300-400 performance increase in order to accomplish the same feat. If more girls are taught at a younger age that in order to really be successful in chess, they have to aim higher too, I see no reason why a lot of girls suddenly quit chess once they reach puberty and/or when they realize being an 1800 just isn't going to cut it.

Precisely my feelings, Bindi. And by way of concrete example, I would strongly recommend to Harmony Zhu's parents (whom I see most Mondays at the ACC) that she not only forego the CYCC U8 Girls next year, but also the CYCC U8 Open. She's too strong for that as well. She should clearly play up in age if she wants to best hone her chess skills. If she continues to tack on rating points, she might even consider playing up 2 age categories and playing in the CYCC U12 Open.

[Pierre Denommee]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

They are looking for a ridding partner, not for a person to love.

It seems rather inconvenient that they would be looking for such in a woman only environment...

[Kerry Liles]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Today's Toronto Star website:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/article/1284711--girl-football-player-dominates-against-the-boys-in-video-gone-viral

9-year old girl star of football team. Fascinating to watch - that girl can fly.

[Duncan Smith]

Abolish the Motion ?

Only about 25% of the posters at the time of this post clearly supported the motion under discussion to eliminate the Canadian separate, parallel women's chess system. This minority indicates a " thumbs down " on the proposed motion by the majority. As far as I personally am concerned, the issue will now be mothballed by me, perhaps to be brought out to be reviewed some years hence again.We'll see if the stats have changed at that time.

Thank you for the participation in this interesting debate.

Bob A

I have a different take on this thread. It reminds me of all the crap we went through when our junior decided to play in the CYCC open section in 2002. It also reminds me of how easily so many regular adult male members ( and occasionally organizers ) often believe they know what is best for others, despite having limited knowledge of what they are talking about.

In all seriousness, if this is what organized chess is to be in Canada, I would strongly recommend that all families reconsider any formal chess activity for their junior girls. School events, most CMA type events, and some special one offs like Ontario girls championship are all reasonably female friendly. Beyond that its a minefield, especially if you're good you are expected to lead when you might not want to.

Think how so many topics involving female players end up talking about expected performance ( or lack thereof ), the "right" to participate in events, afterthoughts on female funding, occasional male ego boosts at the expense of girls, or other similar ideas. This is not a positive environment for female juniors, because they are set up to fail and forced to fight for anything they get in chess. Other activities provide a much smoother path.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Was she able to rest her enormous belly on the hammer while it was running?
THAT, my friend, is the true test... (and a good stabilizing trick I am told).

She didn't have a big belly. Only large arms. I've never operated a jack hammer so don't know about the trick.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

I used to eat lunch with a woman who had been a jack hammer operator for a few years. There were about 10 of us at that table.

Was she able to rest her enormous belly on the hammer while it was running?
THAT, my friend, is the true test... (and a good stabilizing trick I am told).

[Gary Ruben]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

I also made the point that in non-physical activities that rely on intelligence rather than brute strength, men and women should be able to compete on equal grounds.

I used to eat lunch with a woman who had been a jack hammer operator for a few years. There were about 10 of us at that table.

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Yes, but those are physical activities. If you read my post from before where I was belittling Zeljko for being perpetually stupid, I also made the point that in non-physical activities that rely on intelligence rather than brute strength, men and women should be able to compete on equal grounds.

True, but a gym is not a competitive sport. Women like to have their own area for other reasons, not because they can't compete.

[Olivier Tessier]

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[Pierre Denommee]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

We do need a separate system for women, at least for the girls. The reason has nothing to do with chess, it is a social reason. it has been noticed in large sports gathering that male and female athlete do not socialize in the same manner. That has nothing to do with physical abilities, female makes friend with other females differently then males make friend with male. It has been found that the principal reason for which girls compete is to meet other people. A girl competitor who has finished last will be very happy if she has increased her network but a male competitor with a similar ranking will be very sad if not angry. The likelihood that a girl will engage in a male dominated competition is very slim because she will perceive no opportunity to socialize with other girls.

In order to attract girls to chess, we need more girls only competition.

At adult age, the situation is unclear, but at least in Quebec, there is a rise in the number of girls only gyms and of girls only cycling clubs. I know the president of a women only cycling club and although they do send competitors to the Canadian championship, competing is only the goal number 4 after increasing the visibility of women cycling (1), networking (2) and finding riding partners (3).

The female competitors attitude toward competition being different, we still need a separate women system.