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The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
Will you "allow" females to participate in FIDE female events? E. g. Have the cfc veto females who wish to play in the female sections of the WYCC or in the path to the women's world championship?
Hi Roger:
As long as FIDE maintained a separate, parallel women's system, CFC would consent to any woman going to play in any female FIDE event that they would qualify for.
The whole point of the exercise is not to restrict the individual liberty of Canadian women/girl chess players, but to discourage participation in a separate women's system by taking away the formal infrastructure in Canada of that system.
But CFC would not authorize any formal " representative " to a female tournament.
So, for example, Canada would not take up the option of sending a woman to the Women's World Championship as Canadian Women's Champion, and without that, no Canadian women would be able to gain entry on their own personal initiative, into the Women's World Championship.
The CYCC would be a different matter re the female categories, because FIDE allows any girl junior to play who has consent of a national federation. They will pay all their own expenses, and will not be entitled to the " official " representative free board and lodging.
Bob A
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 8 November, 2012, 02:04 AM.
I believe if an organizer wants to organize an all-female event, and women want to play in it, there is nothing wrong with it being rated. What I want to eliminate is the official support of the CFC for the infrastructure that establishes the official separate system.
It does not sound appalling. The goal is to support an improving women's chess in Canada. As women win " open " tournaments in various classes, as they progress, this will be a role model for other women, to draw them into chess. Women will no longer be seen as needing an inferior incumbation system, implying they are somehow inferior to males in chess.
Bob A
Will you "allow" females to participate in FIDE female events? E. g. Have the cfc veto females who wish to play in the female sections of the WYCC or in the path to the women's world championship?
Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.
Hi Roger:
All those except D are intended within my motion.
I believe if an organizer wants to organize an all-female event, and women want to play in it, there is nothing wrong with it being rated. What I want to eliminate is the official support of the CFC for the infrastructure that establishes the official separate system.
It does not sound appalling. The goal is to support an improving women's chess in Canada. As women win " open " tournaments in various classes, as they progress, this will be a role model for other women, to draw them into chess. Women will no longer be seen as needing an inferior incumbation system, implying they are somehow inferior to males in chess.
Bob A
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 8 November, 2012, 01:41 AM.
If a motion was brought to the CFC Governors' 2013 Winter ( Jan. 1/13 ) On-line Meeting that:
" CFC dismantle the infrastructure for the separate, parallel women's chess system in Canada "
it is my understanding from the posts here that the following 6 who have posted in this thread would support such motion:
Jack Maguire
Bindi Cheng
Aman Hambleton
Jean Hebert
Tom O'Donnell
Bob Armstrong
Let me know if I have misinterpreted any of your comments, and this is not the case.
There are a number of others in the other 15 whom I think may support such a motion, but I am hesitant to say they have taken a definite stand. If some of you also would support such a motion, then please let me know by posting such, so I can add your name to my list.
Finally, if you have viewed this thread with some interest, but not yet posted, and would support such a motion, would you also let me know by posting such. I will then add you to the list.
Sometimes, you just have to take a stand!
Thx.
Bob A
Your motion is not very precise. Maybe you should attach more precision to your motion to indicate which parts of the "parallel" system you mean. E.g. all or parts of the following:
That the cfc will not
A) send a women's Olympiad team
B) will not organize or recognize female sections of the cycc
C) will not organize or recognize a Canadian women's championship
D) will not rate or recognize female only events.
If that sounds appalling to you, and I hope it does, perhaps you should reconsider. It is what you are implying with your motion.
21 people have posted in this thread at this point.
If a motion was brought to the CFC Governors' 2013 Winter ( Jan. 1/13 ) On-line Meeting that:
" CFC dismantle the infrastructure for the separate, parallel women's chess system in Canada "
it is my understanding from the posts here that the following 4 who have posted in this thread would support such motion:
Aman Hambleton
Jean Hebert
Tom O'Donnell
Bob Armstrong
Let me know if I have misinterpreted any of your comments, and this is not the case.
There are a number of others in the other 17 whom I think may support such a motion, but I am hesitant to say they have taken a definite stand. If some of you also would support such a motion, then please let me know by posting such, so I can add your name to my list.
Finally, if you have viewed this thread with some interest, but not yet posted, and would support such a motion, would you also let me know by posting such. I will then add you to the list.
Sometimes, you just have to take a stand!
Thx.
Bob A
( Original Post edited on Nov. 8 )
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 8 November, 2012, 11:15 AM.
Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
I thought the skier was not allowed because she wanted to ski the women race as well and this would give her extra practice time and an unfair advantage.
On poker night at the seniors club I've sat at the women table a couple of times. The guys took turns because there were too many for the mens table and too few for the womens. I don't expect any rush of men to play in womens events. :)
Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
In bridge, there are some "Men's" (i.e men only) events, to which women have reacted by going to court. It doesn't seem to affect the "Women's" events which are still taking place.
The Olympics have six gender-neutral competitions - all equestrian. Shooting used to be gender-neutral until a woman won a gold in 1992 - then it was changed back to men/women (identical events, except that women take fewer shots). Archery events are identical for men and women - except that women shoot about 5% fewer arrows.
But which team was followed more closely? There are numerous threads here talking of the Open selection process, life at the olympiad, matches against top ranked teams such as Azerbaijan, and our newest GM. The Women's team only gets mentioned out of fairness. I only paid attention when Jackie Peng started turning in great individual results regardless of the team standing. I think it's very clear between the Open and Women's Olympiad teams which ones were there to compete.
If fan interest levels and contending are supposably important ( imho they aren't ) then you are presenting a strong case why neither team should attend most years. Perhaps most young women that are "serious" about chess are quicker to discover then young men like yourself how limiting the whole area of chess is. The women easily could have had a team this year that was as competitive as the men, but almost every strong player from the last decade has quit or taken a break.
Last edited by Duncan Smith; Thursday, 8 November, 2012, 12:53 AM.
Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
There seem to be a lot more girls proportionally in Michigan chess than we have in Canadian chess. Especially fairly strong girls 1900 to 2100. Instead of figuring out how we might limit opportunities for girls to play chess maybe we should be trying to figure out how we might appeal to the half of the population that isn't currently all that interested in chess.
Toronto Chess News ( TCN ), next Issue # 1-6, of Nov. 15, will have an article that puts forward that former Canadian Women's Champion, Nava Starr, made a similar argument at a CFC or an OCA meeting years ago, using scientific papers to bolster her argument of gender difference affecting chess ability.
Bob A, TCN Editor
I hope your article is a little more specific than that vague description. Years ago? Similar argument? CFC or OCA? Scientific papes?
Hopefully we will get a date, information on which papers, and the nature of her argument as she presented it. Not someone's spin on it years later.
Also of course if you are talking years and years ago then it may be an out of date argument by definition as the science part may be different today. We are all familiar with subsequent studies that disprove earlier studies. We are all also familiar with views about women that have been discredited. For example the suitable role of women in society being limited to homemaking.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Wednesday, 7 November, 2012, 10:16 PM.
Toronto Chess News ( TCN ), next Issue # 1-6, of Nov. 15, will have an article that puts forward that former Canadian Women's Champion, Nava Starr, made a similar argument at a CFC or an OCA meeting years ago, using scientific papers to bolster her argument of gender difference affecting chess ability.
Bob A, TCN Editor
So... does this mean women just suck at chess? That would be a cool revelation for the chess community.
I used to make basically that argument with a guy on a CC chess message board. His argument, as I understood it, was that men are hunters and women are gatherers so their brains are wired differently. He went back to cave man times. I don't agree with his argument but that's basically it.
Toronto Chess News ( TCN ), next Issue # 1-6, of Nov. 15, will have an article that puts forward that former Canadian Women's Champion, Nava Starr, made a similar argument at a CFC or an OCA meeting years ago, using scientific papers to bolster her argument of gender difference affecting chess ability.
Women are just as talented as men, they just aren't being pushed and challenged enough.
I used to make basically that argument with a guy on a CC chess message board. His argument, as I understood it, was that men are hunters and women are gatherers so their brains are wired differently. He went back to cave man times. I don't agree with his argument but that's basically it.
Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?
Hi Gary:
Have to have enough desire to improve, to do the work. Unfortunately, I have generally not been able to study chess ( I just play ) - seems to me to take the fun out of it somehow - a personal problem, I guess. Doubt that would change now in my twilight years LOL
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