Another cheating scandal

[Vlad Drkulec]

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8760

[John Coleman]

Re: Another cheating scandal

It is important to note that despite a search of the player, there was no evidence of cheating found. Everyone agrees he was playing much better than usual.

The original post should say "alleged cheating".

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Another cheating scandal

It is important to note that despite a search of the player, there was no evidence of cheating found. Everyone agrees he was playing much better than usual.

The original post should say "alleged cheating".

I haven't watch all of the video that Chessbase provided with the 'analysis' of the games, but the last 10 min or so seem to conclude that it is clearly a case of cheating - an impossible coincidence of fantastic moves etc. - that they just could not detect how it was done. Speculation is an imbedded receiver (deep in the ear) and a hidden camera (perhaps not even hidden on the person, so searches would be fruitless).

Anyway, technologically it can be done - it is just a matter of how long it might be before it is undetected.

[Ken Einarsson]

Re: Another cheating scandal

Look at the video from the link:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8760

This shows that it is most likely that the guy was cheating and it is just figuring out how he did it.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Another cheating scandal

I watched Lilov's 70-minute video about the Zadar tournament and Ivanov's alleged cheating in its entirety. I think Lilov was predisposed to finding Ivanov guilty. For example in the game Ivanov v Kurajica, Lilov claims that 9.a3 is a computer move and that no human would play such a move. I am pretty sure in a game I would play this move, and I'm pretty sure it would make the short list of moves by many players, some of whom probably aren't computers.

Nevertheless the tactical parts of the game do seem rather "remarkable" so my personal view is that the guy probably was cheating. I would say at least 90% chance.

The scary thing is what is going to happen when some 2500 tries this? They will be much smarter about it, only use the computer in appropriate places (not every move), and suddenly start making 2700ish performances. They will be much harder to catch.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Another cheating scandal

I guess the local yokels in Europe don't have to find anything when they "strip search" someone to come to the conclusion of cheating. Possibly a good attack, like continuing to insist cheating took place, is some legal defence for what they are doing.

Looking at the first game vs Schachinger, I liked whites game coming out of the opening and by time half the moves were played thought the game pretty much played itself. I didn't use a computer to check moves.

There were 5 wins, 2 draws and 2 loses. Hardly what I'd expect from a player using computer help. Draws aren't that hard to get and some players give them after very few moves. Loses aren't hard to get either.

Most of those GM's I've never heard of before. It's remarkable how some nations seem to have the ability to mint weak GM's. Almost as if players wait their turn to be given the title.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Another cheating scandal

Gary, the GMs beaten were not weak ones. I remember marveling a couple of years ago at the roster of the Zagreb, Croatia city championship tournament where there were 26 (!) or so grandmasters entered. Milan Vukadinov who was of Serbian heritage once ruefully observed that all of his friends from the old country were grandmasters now.

I watched the Lilov video from start to finish and as Tom O' Donnell indicated my suspicion is that there was cheating based on the poor recent performances against even relatively weak players and then the suddenly strong play versus titled players. I truly want to believe that this is possible, for someone to come out of nowhere and suddenly ignite and become a grandmaster strength player but realistically it is a statistical longshot.

Lilov is clearly overstating his case as Tom indicated. Lilov flagged opening moves as possible computer moves and the positions were reminiscent of ones that I had played with my students rated 1000 to 1500 either in blitz like games or in simuls.

It will be interesting to see if the player in question reverts to being the one who loses to 2000 players when he is under the microscope in future events or if he can continue his giant killing ways. If he is not cheating then it would make a decent Hollywood movie though. Maybe he just got his hands on some NZT.

[Aman Hambleton]

Re: Another cheating scandal

I truly want to believe that this is possible, for someone to come out of nowhere and suddenly ignite and become a grandmaster strength player but realistically it is a statistical longshot.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Another cheating scandal

It will be interesting to see if the player in question reverts to being the one who loses to 2000 players when he is under the microscope in future events or if he can continue his giant killing ways. If he is not cheating then it would make a decent Hollywood movie though. Maybe he just got his hands on some NZT.

Nothing like putting extra pressure on a chess player and screwing with his head. Also, I never heard of NZT.

I'm a CC International Arbiter. I never felt I had the liberty of calling a player a cheater without hard proof and I don't recall having that. Mostly it was about various rules infractions rather than value added words like "cheater".

He played 9 games. Won 5, drew 2 and lost 2. Nothing really remarkable. You can't stop players from losing to you.

Milan Vukadinov who was of Serbian heritage once ruefully observed that all of his friends from the old country were grandmasters now.

Maybe he knows how to set up events to get players GM norms. The titles do tend to multiply like rabbits.

[Vlad Rekhson]

Re: Another cheating scandal

Overall in Chessbase's Lilov video, I think that he made it quite obvious that the guy was cheating. Although, I don't know why he had to go to such lengths to explain all the cheating tools that can be used and how to obtain them! In any case, I think that the guy was cheating 100% based on his games some of which were played at about 2000 level and others clearly were played like Houdini. I really hope that FIDE takes some action and bans this guy. If they can't even prove a clear cut case like this one, how would they ever prove it when some strong player cheats in a smarter way of infusing his own moves with those of a machine.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Another cheating scandal

Although, I don't know why he had to go to such lengths to explain all the cheating tools that can be used and how to obtain them!

That sort of thing is often done to gain the confidence of the people you wish will embrace your point of view.

The idea is to discard all that and focus on the exact method he claims the person used. What was it?

[Laurentiu Grigorescu]

Re: Another cheating scandal

The issue of cheating in chess tournament play is bigger that the community at large looks at. It is the real doping (not the Ivanchuk type of "doping" at Dresden in 2008). Even the suspicion of cheating could be devastating for the credibility of a player (long term), or for the peace of mind of his opponent (during the game) that might think he has to deal with a player that receives extra help.

FIDE and, as far as I am aware, not a single national Federation took steps to address this issue. Chess is the only competitive sport (in the sense of competitive activity) in which players are allowed to be late, wonder around outside the venue, go for a smoke, check emails, etc. And we, at large, complain for the lack of financial support (sponsorship). Well, when we will see Federer checking his emails and chatting with his trainer and his friends in between the tennis games (equivalent of chess moves), then we can ask for more money for our tournaments. Until then, we have work to do.

Regarding the case in Croatia, anything could have happened. The games themselves, and Lilov's analysis do not prove a way or another. The accused was a still a 2200 FIDE player, and I expect at this level a player prepares more than the first 6 theoretical moves as suggested by Lilov. His analysis is sometimes ridiculos (like Mr. O' Donnell pointed to the 9. a3 move).
To decide on the case, more information is needed. How he played in other tournaments? What is his general level of chess knowledge, etc.
But the main culprit here is chess community at large that neglects the issue of cheating.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Another cheating scandal

Well YOU didn't come out of nowhere. I heard about you in 2010 during the Windsor CYCC from none other than Mark Bluvshtein.

As a theoretical aside are you interested in this year's continental championship once they figure out when it is?

[Aman Hambleton]

Re: Another cheating scandal

As a theoretical aside are you interested in this year's continental championship once they figure out when it is?

Absolutely. It's one of the most intriguing tournaments on the calendar to me, regarding the special norm opportunities as well as the WC spots. I'm very interested!

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Another cheating scandal

That sort of thing is often done to gain the confidence of the people you wish will embrace your point of view.

The idea is to discard all that and focus on the exact method he claims the person used. What was it?

No exact method was found! That is exactly the point of people who are arguing that he is innocent until proven guilty etc. Of course that principle is the higher moral ground and should be maintained. The video is simply one person's opinion of the probable situation - backed up with a lot of rubbish about how easy it is to find miniature cameras and receivers and other spy paraphernalia (as if that was news.)

I prefer to look at it from a probabilistic point of view: there is a high probability (I think) that in this case, the wins involved direct cheating but there is no proof. Whether the tournament organizers had the right to request a search, I don't know... Fair warning: if I ever get such results, I will not agree to a search! :)