Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

[Garland Best]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

One thing should be mentioned about today's current greats if they are to be compared to the greats of yore, and that is that they have access to vast computing and database resources that were lacking for previous generations. In my opinion, all of today's top-tier GMs should be playing flawless chess, and this is because I believe classical chess for humans is "solved". What I mean by that is that for a full-time chess player who is at the very top tier of talent, and who accesses and uses all the available computer resources s/he can, there is no position they should ever encounter over the board that is of such foreign complexity that s/he cannot find either the very best move or a move that is so close to being the best move that making it will not change the outcome of the game. Thus I believe that every game between today's super GM's *SHOULD* end drawn.

Geez Paul, you usually come up with better postulates that this!:p

First of all, all of these GM's have more or less equal access to the same tools, and no matter what Mega-giga-humongous database they have access to, they all have to play over the board, with no computer to look things up with. So at the board, while preparation is a key at the highest levels, at some point on the board, you have to rely on your own resources.

Second, just because the damn computers play better than us now, it doesn't mean they play flawlessly. If they did, then how could they keep writing programs that beat the previous generations?

In my mind, the only way to compare the great players of today with the great players of yesterday is to see how much better they play when compared to their contemporaries. The great players simply DOMINATE the other players in their generation.

It seems to me that truely gifted players, with an innate grasp of the game, appear once per generation. In the 1930's there was Capablanca. In the 1970's it was Fischer. I think Magnus Carlsen is the next in line. All three showed their greatness in childhood, and became worthy of challenging for the world title at a younger age than their peers. Time will tell if I am right about Magnus.

PS: I fall into the "Fischer was an ass" camp. He effectively terrorized his opponents and event organizers alike. The man practically invented the concept of psychological warfare in chess as a way to victory. Every time he lost an event it was due to some sort of conspiratory. I see his actions and those of Topalov vs Kramnik as demeaning to the whole premise of chess and sportmanship.

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Perhaps we should look at the next world champion A.Karpov. Karpov would have wiped the floor with fischer (yes i know i am speculating). Karpov tear of 9 wins in major tournaments after he became world champion was better than couple years that fischer reigned champion. And atleast Karpov had the balls to defend his title. Don't see many time articles about Karpov now do we? Face it, he still gets press because he was american, not because he was the 'greatest'.

[Aris Marghetis]

Re: Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Outside North America, chess is generally recognized as a sport. It will eventually be recognized as one on this continent as well, but will evidently take some more time yet, due to cultural issues.

Hi Frank, I don't know that it is a cultural issue, a translation issue, or what. I also didn't know that chess is generally recognized as a sport outside North America. If that is the case, I am not sure why that should influence me to deny the insult I feel when chess is called a sport, in North American terms, as I live in North America. This is independent of any funding scheming, and I can't bring myself to call chess a sport for special funding. Anyway, I am good with agreeing to disagree with you on this. Happy New Year to all!

[Lawrence Day]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Leave chess out of it. An innocent person experienced breach of trust. He was tortured by police. The police act illegally. His determined efforts to use the justice system to provide justice failed. Post-traumatic stress disorder is predictable. Disillusion is a normal reaction. The racist babbling is just a symptom. It was the cops and the system that broke him.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Leave chess out of it. An innocent person experienced breach of trust. He was tortured by police. The police act illegally. His determined efforts to use the justice system to provide justice failed. Post-traumatic stress disorder is predictable. Disillusion is a normal reaction. The racist babbling is just a symptom. It was the cops and the system that broke him.

I think you speak about 198x period.

What was a reason of no-play in 1973-75? (I still have a lot of pages unread in Russians versus Fischer

[Lawrence Day]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Fischer was hooked on Herbert Armstrong's radio ministry which preached the world would end in 1975. This was stupid but he believed it then and chess had no priority in his plans.
That was his explanation. Personally I think his motivation was for winning the title, the individual triumphing over the state apparatus, which he'd done already so any more would have been anti-climactic.

Incidentally, it is true that Karpov had a spectacular streak in the 1970's, however he was the first player with his own psychopharmacologist and there were no doping rules
so your milage may vary.

[Anthony Cheron]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Leave chess out of it. An innocent person experienced breach of trust. He was tortured by police. The police act illegally. His determined efforts to use the justice system to provide justice failed. Post-traumatic stress disorder is predictable. Disillusion is a normal reaction. The racist babbling is just a symptom. It was the cops and the system that broke him.

I agree. When a person is mistreated, abnormal side-effects take over that person. And Fischer was severely mistreated ( esp. in Japan ) .

To anyone "sick of Fischer" , please study his games. There is infinite intellectual pleasure to be found. Get My 60 Memorable Games ! Larry has the latest reprint! It is a classic! I have the original hardcover and cherish this book among the finest ever in print. The thoughts of a genious are on these pages!

Reason for not retaining championship -- he had cracked by then - insanity, paranoia, and a host of other things. He continued in his life by not playing by society's rules -- on purpose. He died of a organ failure that could have been prevented, once again and finally not playing by society's rules.

[Caesar Posylek]

Re: Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

In my opinion, Bobby Fischer has been one of the greatests chess player ever lived on the Earth.

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

To anyone "sick of Fischer" , please study his games. There is infinite intellectual pleasure to be found. Get My 60 Memorable Games ! Larry has the latest reprint! It is a classic! I have the original hardcover and cherish this book among the finest ever in print. The thoughts of a genious are on these pages!

I study all the World champions games and Fischer is nothing special. I recently got Karpov's Collected Games : All 530 available encounters:1961-1974 by David Levy and I see pure Genius in his games. I also just read Petrosian vs the Elite: 71 Victories by the Master of Manoeuvre 1946-1983 by Raye Keene and Julian Simpole and I am amazed at how much he saw on the board. What I am getting at is that Fischer (although a great player) is nothing special compared to the other world champions (certainly he is far worse when it comes to class) but he gets FAR more press than all the others... Thats why I am sick of hearing about him

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

but he gets FAR more press than all the others...

There are a lot of people who lived in 1970s still are alive and remember 1972 match (excluding me). The match became not only pure chess encounter but political as well, thus involving more people. The outcome - Fischer inspired chess boom. (glories Gary Ruben's days :D

Other champions are only chess champions. I prefer to read about Fischer than to see Paris Hilton everywhere ;)

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

There are a lot of people who lived in 1970s still are alive and remember 1972 match (excluding me). The match became not only pure chess encounter but political as well, thus involving more people. The outcome - Fischer inspired chess boom. (glories Gary Ruben's days :D

Other champions are only chess champions. I prefer to read about Fischer than to see Paris Hilton everywhere ;)

Fischer only got the press because he was American. He still only gets press because hes the only American to officially win the world title... American press... Fischer worship... Other chess champions have done equally impressive feats but it all comes down to hero worship by the American press. How much press did Anand vs Kramnik get? I don't remember reading any... so in reality it is not about chess. The 'fischer boom' happened in North America because he was American... no other reason. Note that there is a chess boom in India because Anand is the Fischer of India. The former soviets have always had a HUGE chess culture because they have dominated the championship. I would rather look to the future and current events than rehashing the past over and over and over. If we are going to look at the past I would rather not just focus on ONE person. Chess isn't going to have 'another boom' when all the North American press can talk about is games played in 1972.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Chess isn't going to have 'another boom' when all the North American press can talk about is games played in 1972.

Thus why do you blame Fischer that somebody does not write about your favorites in your favorite paper?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

There are a lot of people who lived in 1970s still are alive and remember 1972 match (excluding me). The match became not only pure chess encounter but political as well, thus involving more people. The outcome - Fischer inspired chess boom. (glories Gary Ruben's days :D

Other champions are only chess champions. I prefer to read about Fischer than to see Paris Hilton everywhere ;)

I recall the match. You're right about the politics. I recall Kissinger was said to have become involved.

Spassky could have played it differently when Fischer abandoned the match. He could easily have packed his bags and gone home. I doubt anyone would have thought less of him for having done that.

Without the distractions and in a "normal" chess match, rather than the circus atmosphere which seemed to surround the match, the outcome might have been different.

I don't know what the feeling about the match was in Russia but can't imagine the feelings were positive.

I know Fischer won matches before the final. One of his opponents was already in his mid 40's in 1971. Taimanov was also a concert pianist. While he was, I think, a top 10 player that year his games don't seem particularly stong, but that's a subjective view. Petrosian and Larsen were also top 10 and I always thought Larsen's style was made for Fischer to defeat.

In any case, no matter my own thoughts, Fischer was really popular and chess boomed here in North America in his wake. Over the board chess boomed and thrived. People wanted to play like Fischer. Correspondence chess boomed. And it continued. Even when he didn't defend, the anticipation that he would return was enough to keep people interested. It was a wonderful time to be a chess organizer.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

Geez Paul, you usually come up with better postulates that this!:p

Sorry, Garland, someone must have spiked my egg nog!

First of all, all of these GM's have more or less equal access to the same tools, and no matter what Mega-giga-humongous database they have access to, they all have to play over the board, with no computer to look things up with. So at the board, while preparation is a key at the highest levels, at some point on the board, you have to rely on your own resources.

It appears you believe in reason (1) of the three I gave as the main cause of super GM wins / losses, which is very possible. I'm just expressing my personal opinion that if you took Fisher, and gave him from his earliest beginnings in chess a PC loaded with ChessBase / Fritz and all of today's multi million game databases, he would eventually become literally unbeatable, barring the other 2 reasons I gave for losing. And so it would be with Morphy, Capablanca, Alekhine, Lasker, Tal, and I would add with all of their contemporaries. They would all be unbeatable, and so they would all have unfailingly drawn each other.

That may seem like a harsh expectation, but remember these GMS of today who make their living at chess have been studying hours per day, seven days a week, with these amazing tools, since they were old enough to walk.

It would be great to get some super GMs involved in this question, and have them honestly answer whether or not a losing move they made recently was due to the 3rd reason I gave, i.e. deliberately avoiding the best move in favor of the most interesting move.

Second, just because the damn computers play better than us now, it doesn't mean they play flawlessly. If they did, then how could they keep writing programs that beat the previous generations?

Agreed, I don't believe computers play flawlessly (that sounds more like a Bruce Harper belief). None of what I'm saying about human super GMs applies to computers, because computers don't have a childhood phase in which their "brains" are wired for learning at hyperspeed (compared to adults), nor do computers develop an intrinsic understanding of chess or any other undertaking, and even their neural network learning capabilities are rudimentary at best.

In the 1930's there was Capablanca. In the 1970's it was Fischer. I think Magnus Carlsen is the next in line.

I haven't followed Carlsen, does he ever lose? How old is he, and do you think he'll develop to the point where he will never lose due to the first reason I gave?

[Jean-Pierre Rhéaume]

Re : Re: Re : Kasparov's tribute to Bobby Fischer from 'TIME' magazine

I study all the World champions games and Fischer is nothing special. I recently got Karpov's Collected Games : All 530 available encounters:1961-1974 by David Levy and I see pure Genius in his games. I also just read Petrosian vs the Elite: 71 Victories by the Master of Manoeuvre 1946-1983 by Raye Keene and Julian Simpole and I am amazed at how much he saw on the board. (...)

Karpov and especially Petrosian are two of my chess "idols" :) especially the soft Tiger.
It would be nice if you could tell us more about "Petrosian vs the Elite". I've never heard about this book before.

Now, back to Fischer.

X X X X X X X

http://www.google.ca/search?gbv=2&hl...chercher&meta=

= 36 links.

http://www.chessville.com/Quotes/moreFischer.htm

http://www.chessville.com/Quotes/New...ons_Part_2.htm

1. Page - Tal on Fischer
- [ Traduire cette page ]
Title: Tal on Fischer Post by: nakazanie on March 11, 2008, 08:17:42 AM.
“Bobby Fischer was the greatest genius to have descended from the chessic sky. ...
http://www.personalchesstraining.com...age;topic=72.0 - 3k - En cache - Pages similaires

This page could no be opened. But Google is a genius of a kind, so…

http://www.google.ca/search?gbv=2&hl...chercher&meta=

gave me the quotation :

http://www.chesscircle.net/forums/ge...ing-today.html

with this :

In the end, however, reality overcame denial. Tal eventually stated straight out that Fischer was
"the greatest genius to have descended from the chessic sky."

Or this link :

http://epiac1216.wordpress.com/2008/...scher-is-dead/

With this :

By a consensus of grandmasters, he had become the strongest chess player in history.
“The greatest genius to have descended from the chess heavens,” Mikhail Tal of Latvia,
the former world champion, once said.

Same here :

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...9155/index.htm

X X X X X X X

But I wonder if it could possible to find where and when Tal said or wrote (or did he ?) the following :

“The greatest genius to have descended from the chess heavens”

or some variants of it.

My point is that I think Tal COULD have sait it, but did he actually said it ?

JPR