2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

[Aris Marghetis]

secondary, etc. prizes in class sections

I respectfully submit that for class prizes below the Open/Top section, so let's say for most 5-round Canadian weekend tournaments, for U2200-U2000-U1800-U1600-U14000, that unless the class section is quite big, so at least 16 players, that there be only one big prize for that class section. Now, as a class section approaches 20 players (remember, this is for 5 rounds), then a 2nd place class prize could be considered, but rarely a 3rd place, IMHO.

The simple reason for this is that, in my observation, and it makes sense that it would be this way, every class section seems to have 1 or 2 players who clearly stand out in the standings, but almost invariably, a whole bunch of people tie for 2nd and especially 3rd place, which causes the small 3rd place prize to be split into insignificantly small amounts. So, rather than have U1800 prizes of $250-$150-$100 (making these up), if the section is not too big for 5 rounds to determine a winner, why not have a $500 prize for the winner?

As a personal anecdote, for example, I remember one Canadian Open battling for my share of $100, but I tied with 8 other players, so I took home $11! My wife laughed for days! :)

[Gary Ruben]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

Entry fees and TD services were already accounted for because the prize fund was already published. Guaranteed was $16,000 prize fund including bonus prizes!

Chess tournaments aren't a democracy. The organizers set up the event the way they want. You don't like the conditions, you don't play. It's very simple.

You could organize chess tournaments and set the prize funds the way you want.

Do you win prizes or is this discussion academic?

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

oh, I didn't realize you were using actual numbers from the tournament, I assumed this was a hypothetical situation.:o

Neverthless, I am curious about what your answers would be if this was a hypothetical situation.:)

[Bob Gillanders]

Give everyone a chance to win!!

Aris,

As you say, often in a class, 1 or 2 players stand out. So if you only have 1 or 2 class prizes, then quickly everyone else is out of the money. It's really fun when lots of players are battling for the crumbs in the final round.

Those $11 prizes are sometimes the most delicious!( or even an empty beer can on a block of wood):):):):)

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Give everyone a chance to win!!

Hi Bob:

I hadn't really thought about this idea a lot, but I think I agree with you.

The class players really don't expect to play for " big " prizes ( but they do expect that the sectional prize fund will reflect the no. of section entries - which I think is one of Precy's points - keep a substantial portion of the entry fees in the section, while recognizing that there has to be some subsidization of the top section, to get attractive enough prizes there that top players will feel it is worthwhile for them to spend the weekend ).

So why not distribute the prize fund, whatever it may be in total, among more players to increase the adrenelin flow among the lower rated patzers. As you say, nothing like being in contention for a prize, even a little one. I don't think you'd get less class players out because you lowered the first prize in a class section, and distributed it more broadly. Organizationally, it's probably more of a headache to the TD though, to have to deal with more prize winners, and have to make change for all us ( well, you anyway ) $ 11 prize winners.

Bob

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Give everyone a chance to win!!

... and then there are the advantages of non-monetary prizes or special prizes (like greatest cumulative upsets)... The guys in the Open section likely don't care that they miss out on winning a copy of the Amateur's Mind, but the under-1400's might compete harder to try to win it. And there's less perception that it's taking away from any one section because there's no precise monetary value assigned.

[Aris Marghetis]

Re: Give everyone a chance to win!!

Aris,

As you say, often in a class, 1 or 2 players stand out. So if you only have 1 or 2 class prizes, then quickly everyone else is out of the money. It's really fun when lots of players are battling for the crumbs in the final round.

Those $11 prizes are sometimes the most delicious!( or even an empty beer can on a block of wood):):):):)

Hi Bob, well, they stand out BY THE END! If the class range is narrow enough, like 200 rating points, then there seems to be lots of excitement of battling for a prize bigger than what players in classes might be used to. Thanks everyone for your ideas though.

[John Brown]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

I guess I could donate a couple cases of beer then at least 48 players could get a better luck next time prize and when they get home they can cry in their beer for not winning cash. Seems to me that Precy McKoy has cried in a lot of those beers in the past. That's why he'd like to win that $11 prize Mr. Gillanders suggests.

[Precy Mckoy]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

I guess I could donate a couple cases of beer then at least 48 players could get a better luck next time prize and when they get home they can cry in their beer for not winning cash. Seems to me that Precy McKoy has cried in a lot of those beers in the past. That's why he'd like to win that $11 prize Mr. Gillanders suggests.

That's right! That's why the Continental Chess Association had been very successful although for that $11 prize, even a grandmaster in the Open Section is more than willing as a reward for a decent score! Better than nothing! ;)

[Ben Daswani]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

Why should class players even EXPECT prizes? They're not particularly good at chess. They're amateurs. That's why they're not playing in the top section. Should I expect a prize if I score a hat trick at floor hockey, run a 400m in a minute, or cook a fine meal? No, because these are hobbies, not vocations. Yes, cooking is a hobby of mine. Don't step.

Hell, maybe I should demand a class prize the next time I get an A on a term paper. I mean Orwell, Salinger, Capote, these people all got paid to write. Why not me? The prize can come out of my tuition.

Chess is your HOBBY. You don't DESERVE money if you do well, because "doing well" by your standards isn't actually a feat. Period. There's no need to beat around the bush. I expect TO PAY when I view a film at the cinema. I expect TO PAY when I attend a Canucks game. I expect TO PAY when I exercise at the gym. However, I expect TO BE PAID when I tutor high school students. There are times when you deserve to gain money and times when you deserve to lose money. You need to understand the difference.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

and we were having such a pleasant conversation until Ben showed up and decided to insult everyone.:(

[Ben Daswani]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

and we were having such a pleasant conversation until Ben showed up and decided to insult everyone.:(

I can't tell if you're serious or facetious. Your use of sad faces implies sincerity. However, the conversation was far from pleasant (absurd seems more fitting), and I didn't actually insult anyone. Which is rare. In most posts, I insult someone. Brandon Dubinsky is a piec

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: 2009 pwc toronto open chess championship

I can't tell if you're serious or facetious. Your use of sad faces implies sincerity. However, the conversation was far from pleasant (absurd seems more fitting), and I didn't actually insult anyone. Which is rare. In most posts, I insult someone. Brandon Dubinsky is a piec

You said: "Why should class players even EXPECT prizes? They're not particularly good at chess. They're amateurs....Chess is your HOBBY. You don't DESERVE money if you do well, because "doing well" by your standards isn't actually a feat. Period." End Quote.

This is the part where you insulted all class players. I realize by chesstalk standards, maybe this is actually considered a compliment But seriously, I get annoyed when I hear strong players (>2000) argue they should get 100% of the rewards and bear 0% of the costs! It's the class players whose pay most of the bills. You would deny us the crumbs ? :(

Maybe we should run a class players only tournament !;)

[Bob Armstrong]

A Class Tournament ?

Hi Bob:

About a year or so ago in one of my SCTCN&V newsletters, I suggested just that : a tournament for <2000 players, with 3 sections: <2000;<1600;<1400.

The entry fees, minus a proportionate amount of the expenses ( No. of players in a section/total no. of players ) would STAY in a section - if you want bigger prizes in a section, then get out and promote the tournament to players in your section. So the biggest first prize could well be in the U 1400 section, if that's where the most players show up ! ( that may drive some > 2000 players nuts ). And I'd suggest prizes be divided so there are 10 prizes per section ( the Mckoy system ).

What are the downsides to such a tournament ( I don't see many )?

Do we have an organizer who would be willing to gamble on such a tournament??

Bob

[Aris Marghetis]

Re: A Class Tournament ?

Hi Bob:

About a year or so ago in one of my SCTCN&V newsletters, I suggested just that : a tournament for <2000 players, with 3 sections: <2000;<1600;<1400.

The entry fees, minus a proportionate amount of the expenses ( No. of players in a section/total no. of players ) would STAY in a section - if you want bigger prizes in a section, then get out and promote the tournament to players in your section. So the biggest first prize could well be in the U 1400 section, if that's where the most players show up ! ( that may drive some > 2000 players nuts ). And I'd suggest prizes be divided so there are 10 prizes per section ( the Mckoy system ).

What are the downsides to such a tournament ( I don't see many )?

Do we have an organizer who would be willing to gamble on such a tournament??

Bob

Hi Bob, my initial reaction is hesitancy to exclude players because they are "too good". If I'm going to organize an event, I would prefer to try to include any interested skill level, and especially the better players that other players love to watch do battle.

I realize it sounds philosophical, but I cannot bring myself to exclude better players.

Just my 2c worth.