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  • Originally posted by Sid Belzberg View Post

    Paragat, allow me to lay bare this grotesque caricature of a counter-argument. The pitiful thrust of its point, a disheveled hedgehog of thought rolled up in what it imagines invincibility, is as unconvincing as a stewed prune served as a delicacy.

    "Fair competition," it claims, the term sullied and marred by its application. How can one term, so nobly conceived, be dragged through the mud of illogicality and emerge, in this sorry instance, disrobed of its original sinlessness? You know, fair competition: the ballet of free markets, a waltz in equilibrium, not an artillery blast at close quarters.

    To bring a steamroller into this Eden of lemonade stands is not unlike introducing a wolf into a creche of innocent lambs. One can almost hear the clattering machinery of this flawed philosophy, grinding gears drowning out the sweet symphony of genuine competition. No it is not "creative intelligence" to deploy a steamroller, any more than it is artistry to slash a canvas with a knife and declare it improved.

    And what of this hypothetical lemonade entrepreneur, Dillip? Must he stand accused of self-inflicted wounds, merely for daring to exist within the trajectory of his rival's rampaging vehicle? That is victim-blaming rendered as farce, a dark comedy where the punchline is a bruise.

    No, if we allow this garish interpretation to stand, we hollow out the golden core of Libertarian ideals, leaving a gilded shell. Natural law, perverted thus, becomes unnatural farce. The cherished principle, "Thou shalt not harm others," is not a fragile vase to be shattered by the brute force of mercenary tactics; it is, rather, the firmament above us, unyielding and unchangeable, under which the intricate ballet of human interaction occurs.

    So, let us not tarnish these lofty ideals with the soot of faulty reasoning. For, to do so would be to dance willingly into the gaping jaw of absurdity, and, my dear Paragat, that is a dance in which I refuse to partake.
    I do not recognize this writing as Sid Belzberg. Someone has hacked his CT account?

    Two lemonade stands on the same street corner is an "Eden" of lemonade stands? Puh-lease!

    It IS creative intelligence to deploy a steamroller against a lemonade stand .... IF IT WORKS. Under Dilip's Natural Law, under "fair competition", it would work.

    If you disagree, please explain in layman's terms how the use of a steamroller against an opponent's lemonade stand is NOT fair competition. And believe me, once you go down that path, I can take it to where we will end up with lawyers involved to the Nth degree. Which will exactly prove my point: Libertarianism is really Lawyertarianism.

    And if you say lawyers cannot be involved ... you invoke a police state, i.e. fascism. In that case, Libertarianism is really fascism.

    The overriding conclusion is that LIbertarianism is some logical ideal that cannot be realized in the real world. It is a logical fallacy. The real world, to use your own terms Sid (if this post I am responding to is really Sid) ....

    The real world is, and has been for millennia, full of fragile vases regularly and consistently shattered by the brute force of mercenary tactics!

    And the beat goes on......
    Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Sunday, 27th August, 2023, 05:59 AM.

    Comment


    • Are Some Political Systems Better than Others?

      Dilip Panjwani - Post # 146 - 23/8/27 - "It seems you [Bob A] agree that making Marxism democratic does not make it any better than that in Russia, as the majority opinion does not mean the right opinion.

      Response

      NO - I don't agree with your comment at all! I am somewhat surprised that you hold such a position.

      The Majority Opinion rules in ANY democracy. So we must look at other factors to discriminate between political philosophies.

      Russia - Russia is a dictatorship dressed up in democratic sheep's clothing.

      So it is definitely worse than Democratic Marxism (A democratic system). I believe I will have no trouble getting this Statement generally accepted when I bring it to the ChessTalk Human Self-Government thread.

      USA - USA is a Regulated Capitalist State (With the Oligarch's determining the minimum extent of regulation the public will tolerate/accept).

      The majority opinion there is definitely worse than in Canada on many issues: Abortion; Medical care of the public; partisanship on Judicial Appointments; accepting politicians with very poor moral correctness (Libertarianism is much better on this as well......it is why I am shocked that sometimes you support the re-election of Donald Trump as President); gun control; etc.

      Sweden - Sweden is a Social Democratic Government (Popularly called "Capitalism with a human face"). The only difference from the Capitalist government in Canada is that the majority have been able to cow their government into a better quality of life than in Canada. The majority opinion is better at this quality of life test than the Canadian majority - teacher's working conditions and pensions; daycare; public education; etc.

      I could go on with some past examples - Democratic Socialism - France under Mitterrand - longest lasting consecutive years government in France ever - worker's rights given high priority. Yup, the majority opinion there was much better than today's in Russia or USA.

      China - China is an old-style USSR Communist State - a dictatorship dressed up in democratic sheep's clothing as well.

      Here the dictator is the main power within the Chinese Communist Party......and at the moment, this seems not to be the often powerful "Central Committee".....Xi Jinping has managed to create a cult of leadership unseen since Mao Zedong. So China is on a par with Russia, IMHO, re human rights. But it is better than Russia on material benefits to the majority of its citizens (Especially when you consider its population is second only to India now (In the past it had the highest population since forever on this planet).
      Human rights are trampled by the majority; workers' rights are trampled by majority opinion.

      MY Statement:


      Democratic Marxism will allow the majority in any country, in future as it is slowly adopted across the globe, to implement its will, by vote and by law, better than any existing government today.

      Click image for larger version

Name:	Democratic Marxism.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	13.7 KB
ID:	228760

      The issue between competing political philosophies of which is better is measured by the extent to which the majority opinion, which does rule in democracies, gets it CORRECT!

      By the majority adopting Democratic Marxism in a country, this country will definitely be better than that in Russia - the majority will be allowed to think for itself, and rule, and will sort it out better than the other systems where the will of the people is suppressed (More or less, depending on the system) and other negative factors will come into play and there will be laws imposed on them which they know to be wrong, but cannot legally change. This will not happen under Democratic Marxism - it trusts its majority to get it CORRECT when left alone to decide. Humanity as a whole is altruistic......systems which give minority interests (E.g. Oligarchs) the right to integrate into the system, self-interested benefits, are the real problem for the working class/all citizens.

      Relationship of the Above to this thread on Donald Trump

      Should Donald Trump become # 47, as well as # 45 in the USA, the chance of the majority asserting itself at all will become very dubious. The Republican Party/Donald are heading into authoritarian waters, and that can, and likely might, lead to Dictatorship.

      Yes, Dilip, the USA government system will be WORSE than that of many countries, and many countries of the past. It may even be a disaster for the world.

      Question to Dilip: Will Russia's influence on the globe increase with his puppet, Donald, at the helm?

      Bob A

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Pargat Perrer View Post

        I do not recognize this writing as Sid Belzberg. Someone has hacked his CT account?

        Two lemonade stands on the same street corner is an "Eden" of lemonade stands? Puh-lease!

        It IS creative intelligence to deploy a steamroller against a lemonade stand .... IF IT WORKS. Under Dilip's Natural Law, under "fair competition", it would work.

        If you disagree, please explain in layman's terms how the use of a steamroller against an opponent's lemonade stand is NOT fair competition. And believe me, once you go down that path, I can take it to where we will end up with lawyers involved to the Nth degree. Which will exactly prove my point: Libertarianism is really Lawyertarianism.

        And if you say lawyers cannot be involved ... you invoke a police state, i.e. fascism. In that case, Libertarianism is really fascism.

        The overriding conclusion is that LIbertarianism is some logical ideal that cannot be realized in the real world. It is a logical fallacy. The real world, to use your own terms Sid (if this post I am responding to is really Sid) ....

        The real world is, and has been for millennia, full of fragile vases regularly and consistently shattered by the brute force of mercenary tactics!

        And the beat goes on......
        I think Sid was just making fun of you, and in simple words, indicating that you are a nasty troll!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
          Are Some Political Systems Better than Others?

          Dilip Panjwani - Post # 146 - 23/8/27 - "It seems you [Bob A] agree that making Marxism democratic does not make it any better than that in Russia, as the majority opinion does not mean the right opinion.

          Response

          NO - I don't agree with your comment at all! I am somewhat surprised that you hold such a position.

          The Majority Opinion rules in ANY democracy. So we must look at other factors to discriminate between political philosophies.

          Russia - Russia is a dictatorship dressed up in democratic sheep's clothing.

          So it is definitely worse than Democratic Marxism (A democratic system). I believe I will have no trouble getting this Statement generally accepted when I bring it to the ChessTalk Human Self-Government thread.

          USA - USA is a Regulated Capitalist State (With the Oligarch's determining the minimum extent of regulation the public will tolerate/accept).

          The majority opinion there is definitely worse than in Canada on many issues: Abortion; Medical care of the public; partisanship on Judicial Appointments; accepting politicians with very poor moral correctness (Libertarianism is much better on this as well......it is why I am shocked that sometimes you support the re-election of Donald Trump as President); gun control; etc.

          Sweden - Sweden is a Social Democratic Government (Popularly called "Capitalism with a human face"). The only difference from the Capitalist government in Canada is that the majority have been able to cow their government into a better quality of life than in Canada. The majority opinion is better at this quality of life test than the Canadian majority - teacher's working conditions and pensions; daycare; public education; etc.

          I could go on with some past examples - Democratic Socialism - France under Mitterrand - longest lasting consecutive years government in France ever - worker's rights given high priority. Yup, the majority opinion there was much better than today's in Russia or USA.

          China - China is an old-style USSR Communist State - a dictatorship dressed up in democratic sheep's clothing as well.

          Here the dictator is the main power within the Chinese Communist Party......and at the moment, this seems not to be the often powerful "Central Committee".....Xi Jinping has managed to create a cult of leadership unseen since Mao Zedong. So China is on a par with Russia, IMHO, re human rights. But it is better than Russia on material benefits to the majority of its citizens (Especially when you consider its population is second only to India now (In the past it had the highest population since forever on this planet).
          Human rights are trampled by the majority; workers' rights are trampled by majority opinion.

          MY Statement:


          Democratic Marxism will allow the majority in any country, in future as it is slowly adopted across the globe, to implement its will, by vote and by law, better than any existing government today.

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Democratic Marxism.jpg Views:	0 Size:	13.7 KB ID:	228760

          The issue between competing political philosophies of which is better is measured by the extent to which the majority opinion, which does rule in democracies, gets it CORRECT!

          By the majority adopting Democratic Marxism in a country, this country will definitely be better than that in Russia - the majority will be allowed to think for itself, and rule, and will sort it out better than the other systems where the will of the people is suppressed (More or less, depending on the system) and other negative factors will come into play and there will be laws imposed on them which they know to be wrong, but cannot legally change. This will not happen under Democratic Marxism - it trusts its majority to get it CORRECT when left alone to decide. Humanity as a whole is altruistic......systems which give minority interests (E.g. Oligarchs) the right to integrate into the system, self-interested benefits, are the real problem for the working class/all citizens.

          Relationship of the Above to this thread on Donald Trump

          Should Donald Trump become # 47, as well as # 45 in the USA, the chance of the majority asserting itself at all will become very dubious. The Republican Party/Donald are heading into authoritarian waters, and that can, and likely might, lead to Dictatorship.

          Yes, Dilip, the USA government system will be WORSE than that of many countries, and many countries of the past. It may even be a disaster for the world.

          Question to Dilip: Will Russia's influence on the globe increase with his puppet, Donald, at the helm?

          Bob A
          Hi Bob,
          In USA and many other democracies, when we talk of majority vs. minority, we are talking of 51% vs 49%. What makes you think that imposing the will (with a myriad of controversial laws) of the 51% upon the 49% that disagrees, is the right thing to do? Why are you against a system in which the government has mainly judicial responsibilities and cannot impose the desires of the majority to cause disadvantages to the minority? Such a government need not even have to be 'elected'; it could just be appointed by some sort of rotation in a system of 'circles within circles' which we discussed in the past, and which you were also in favor of...
          Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Sunday, 27th August, 2023, 05:22 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Pargat Perrer View Post

            He refused to make payments to his building contractors, and when accused of that in the 2016 primaries, he responded "That makes me smart". Most of the contractors ended up bankrupt. Their lemonade stands had been effectively steamrolled.
            That is what I earlier called 'a sad commentary on our current legal system', wherein Trump's liars (lawyers) could use the myriad stupid, often controversial laws to 'prove' that white is black and black is white... And being a psychopath, Trump thought it was 'smart' to amass wealth by doing the wrong stuff 'legally' in a corrupt legal system...
            Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Sunday, 27th August, 2023, 05:43 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dilip Panjwani View Post

              I think Sid was just making fun of you, and in simple words, indicating that you are a nasty troll!
              Labelling someone a troll when that someone has exposed your own position as illogical is a favorite tactic on CT. It doesn't bother me in the least, because it is a sign of pure weakness.

              "Ohhh... I've been proven wrong...." (typing furiously) .... "You Nasty Troll!"

              None of it matters, because Libertarianism is never going to become the political system of choice (although it could be attempted, I have shown it would break down within one or two terms into revolt and ousting from power).

              Comment


              • Types of Governing

                Dilip Panjwani - Post # 154 - 23/8/27

                What makes you [Bob A] think that imposing the will (with a myriad of controversial laws) of the 51% upon the 49% that disagrees, is the right thing to do? Why are you against a system in which the government has mainly judicial responsibilities and cannot impose the desires of the majority to cause disadvantages to the minority?

                Response

                One type of Democracy (Most) operate by majority vote in the Parliament (Generally "Government by Representation"). The concept is that in this way, the Will of the People (The Majority) rules.

                But the "tyranny of the majority" in most democracies is completely countered by Constitutions. In this law, human rights are enshrined as sacred, as well as setting out any national Constitutional Rights. The attempts by the majority to do harm to any minority are answered by a minority lawsuit alleging a breach of their rights by government. The Judiciary, whom we trust to a very high degree, as a main player in our overall systems of government, will decide if the minority is being harmed in some way. If they are, the court has the power to nullify the obnoxious law, and cause the harm being done to the minority to cease.

                So, as in Libertarianism, the Judiciary is the bulwark of proper government.

                I do have concerns that Libertarian purists believe that the government need only pass one law: The Natural Law. If someone is aggrieved by the actions of another, they simply launch a court action against the offender. As has been stated here before, my concern is with everyone having a private interpretation of how their self-interest actions are exempted by the Natural Law. Disagreements on this will be myriad. A Constitution is much clearer and more concrete, and so is less ambiguous. And yet even then we have a plethora of court cases alleging that someone claiming to be innocent is in fact guilty of breach of someone's Constitutional Right. I fear Pargat Perrer's belief that Libertarianism will have more lawsuits than non-Libertarian governments, with lots of laws, is true.

                So we have both democracy plus minority protection. The Libertarian government, however chosen to wield power, will have some "majority" on it. If you believe the government in operating will not interpret the Natural Law in their favour, and have to be brought to court regularly to reign them in, you are not seeing the world as it really is, and the immoral self-interest people are sometimes capable of.

                Should our dear Donald become # 47 in the USA, there will be a lot of lawsuits against the government for breaching the Constitution (The citizens will thank God, or someone, that they have it as the basic law!).......they'll make the number of indictments and law suits against Donald look like chump change.

                Bob A (Believer in Democracy, though "Direct" rather than "Representative").
                Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 31st August, 2023, 03:12 PM.

                Comment


                • Types of Governing

                  Dilip Panjwani - Post # 154 - 23/8/27

                  ...a government need not even have to be 'elected'; it could just be appointed by some sort of rotation in a system of 'circles within circles...'

                  Response

                  The people are free to determine how to govern themselves. So if they prefer to jettison the "Elected Government", they are certainly free to come up with some other way of setting up the rule over them.

                  But good luck getting a majority vote on some other type of never-before-tried system, such as rotation among some specific and different "Committees" (perhaps using the method of circles within circles you propose.......many do not know what this means.....and I am unclear now on the details. It would be helpful if you would describe how government might simple rotate between some generally accepted groups of citizens.)

                  In the USA, I fear that a majority that would elect Donald, would come up with a pretty horrible alternate system of who will be the government.......just sayin'!

                  Bob A
                  Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 31st August, 2023, 03:12 PM.

                  Comment




                  • Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
                    Types of Governing

                    Dilip Panjwani - Post # 154 - 23/8/27

                    What makes you [Bob A] think that imposing the will (with a myriad of controversial laws) of the 51% upon the 49% that disagrees, is the right thing to do? Why are you against a system in which the government has mainly judicial responsibilities and cannot impose the desires of the majority to cause disadvantages to the minority?

                    Response

                    One type of Democracy (Most) operate by majority vote in the Parliament (Generally "Government by Representation"). The concept is that in this way, the Will of the People (The Majority) rules.

                    But the "tyranny of the majority" in most democracies is completely countered by Constitutions. In this law, human rights are enshrined as sacred, as well as setting out any national Constitutional Rights. The attempts by the majority to do harm to any minority are answered by a minority lawsuit alleging a breach of their rights by government. The Judiciary, whom we trust to a very high degree, as a main player in our overall systems of government, will decide if the minority is being harmed in some way. If they are, the court has the power to nullify the obnoxious law, and cause the harm being done to the minority to cease.

                    So, as in Libertarianism, the Judiciary is the bulwark of proper government.

                    I do have concerns that Libertarian purists believe that the government need only pass one law: The Natural Law. If someone is aggrieved by the actions of another, they simply launch a court action against the offender. As has been stated here before, my concern is with everyone having a private interpretation of how their self-interest actions are exempted by the Natural Law. Disagreements on this will be myriad. A Constitution is much clearer and more concrete, and so is less ambiguous. And yet even then we have a plethora of court cases alleging that someone claiming to be innocent is in fact guilty of breach of someone's Constitutional Right. I fear Pargat Perrer's belief that Libertarianism will have more lawsuits than non-Libertarian governments, with lots of laws, is true.

                    So we have both democracy plus minority protection. The Libertarian government, however chosen to wield power, will have some "majority" on it. If you believe the government in operating will not interpret the Natural Law in their favour, and have to be brought to court regularly to reign them in, you are not seeing the world as it really is, and the immoral self-interest people are sometimes capable of.

                    Should our dear Donald become # 47 in the USA, there will be a lot of lawsuits against the government for breaching the Constitution (The citizens will thank God, or someone, that they have it as the basic law!).......they'll make the number of indictments and law suits against Donald look like chump change.

                    Bob A (Believer in Democracy, though "Direct" rather than "Representative".

                    Bob, I am very impressed by your response above. Very eloquently expressed, especially the statement:

                    "If you (Dilip) believe the government in operating will not interpret the Natural Law in their favour, and have to be brought to court regularly to reign them in, you are not seeing the world as it really is, and the immoral self-interest people are sometimes capable of."

                    To date, Dilip has not responded at all to the constant reminders that human nature is in control and always has been and always will be. Well, that is to say, he has not responded except to claim "You Nasty Troll!" to me.

                    To you, he has been more polite, while even less informative (if that is possible).

                    Bob, i wonder what you think about my claim that Dilip is really presenting Libertarianism as fascism in sheep's clothing. Specifically, that no, lawsuits will not IN FACT be more prevalent as they should be absent our current set of laws and precedents, because Libertarianism will IN FACT be a police state.
                    Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Monday, 28th August, 2023, 06:41 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pargat Perrer View Post

                      Labelling someone a troll when that someone has exposed your own position as illogical is a favorite tactic on CT. It doesn't bother me in the least, because it is a sign of pure weakness.

                      "Ohhh... I've been proven wrong...." (typing furiously) .... "You Nasty Troll!"

                      None of it matters, because Libertarianism is never going to become the political system of choice (although it could be attempted, I have shown it would break down within one or two terms into revolt and ousting from power).
                      The fact remains, as quite a few on various posts on chesstalk have indicated just over the last couple of days, that you are a nasty troll!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
                        Types of Governing

                        the world as it really is, and the immoral self-interest people are sometimes capable of.


                        Bob A (Believer in Democracy, though "Direct" rather than "Representative".
                        Your 'immoral and self-interested' people either mischievously or genuinely misinterpret laws in order to launch suits, and so the more the laws, the more the suits. Get it? And you are missing the point that a Libertarian government will not be doing much at all, except running a Judiciary, and hence there will be hardly anything for your 'immoral and self-interested' people to complain about...
                        If people generally mind their own business (as in Libertarianism), rather than enjoy minding other people's business (as in Marxism), there is less for everyone to complain about...
                        Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Monday, 28th August, 2023, 09:23 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Communism could have potentially worked much better, had Stalin not gotten hold of its leadership in the USSR, following the death of Lenin in 1924. Lenin was very worried about Stalin becoming too powerful. The two had worked closely together for the previous 20 years. History has since proven Lenin correct in his estimation. Stalin pushed aside his main rival Trotsky (eventually having him murdered in Mexico in 1940), and worked to assume absolute power, with a series of murderous purges. Stalin survived World War II only with the help of massive military and food aid from the Allies, including Canada; this at a time when he was directing a colossal secret espionage program against the very nations which were helping him. Probably, more than 30 million Soviets lost their lives in that war. Stalin also received an enormous boost with the information from his spy Richard Sorge (a Russian-born German) in Tokyo, who conveyed the vital inside knowledge that Japan would NOT attack the USSR in its east, once the Germans had invaded the USSR in the west, starting on June 22, 1941. Sorge's information, from the very top of Japanese leadership (which he had infiltrated) may have been the single most important spying fact in history, insofar as it affected an outcome. It enabled Stalin to transfer his large eastern reserves in Siberia by rail to the west, where their arrival was perfectly timed to meet the German attack in early winter, 1941. The German invasion was stopped, and eventually rolled back, beginning in summer 1943, with the largest tank battle in history, at Kursk in the Ukraine, where Stalin received significant intelligence help from the West, which was reading the German signals traffic. Sorge was eventually caught by the Japanese, and paid with his life.

                          I am certainly not defending communism as the best, or even, a good, system. But for the vast bulk of Chinese people, it has certainly made their lives better, after 1949, when the Communists won victory in the civil war. The standard of living of the average Chinese person is much certainly higher now than it ever was, under whichever imperial dynasty one could examine, through the long millennia of Chinese empire. Probably one quarter of China's immense population still lives in serious poverty in 2023. That said, Mao did arrange for the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese during his long rule, from 1949 -- 1976. There were centuries, long before our current time, when China was the most advanced civilization on the planet, and by a wide margin. The jump from emperor rule straight to democracy, in the earlier part of the 20th century, was much too large and too sudden for China to undertake smoothly. They had had no democratic tradition. Following the death of democratic leader Sun Yat Sen in 1925, China was not well served by the Kuomintang and its leader Chiang Kai Shek, which took control shortly afterwards. Chiang proved to be a venal fascist style of leader. Mao and his communist team were able to connect to the rural, poor Chinese people; they expanded their support base, and (with significant assistance from the West, which was also helping Chiang) eventually triumphed over both the invading Japanese and the Kuomintang, which fled to Taiwan in 1949.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Frank Dixon View Post
                            Communism could have potentially worked much better, had Stalin not gotten hold of its leadership in the USSR, following the death of Lenin in 1924. Lenin was very worried about Stalin becoming too powerful. The two had worked closely together for the previous 20 years. History has since proven Lenin correct in his estimation. Stalin pushed aside his main rival Trotsky (eventually having him murdered in Mexico in 1940), and worked to assume absolute power, with a series of murderous purges. Stalin survived World War II only with the help of massive military and food aid from the Allies, including Canada; this at a time when he was directing a colossal secret espionage program against the very nations which were helping him. Probably, more than 30 million Soviets lost their lives in that war. Stalin also received an enormous boost with the information from his spy Richard Sorge (a Russian-born German) in Tokyo, who conveyed the vital inside knowledge that Japan would NOT attack the USSR in its east, once the Germans had invaded the USSR in the west, starting on June 22, 1941. Sorge's information, from the very top of Japanese leadership (which he had infiltrated) may have been the single most important spying fact in history, insofar as it affected an outcome. It enabled Stalin to transfer his large eastern reserves in Siberia by rail to the west, where their arrival was perfectly timed to meet the German attack in early winter, 1941. The German invasion was stopped, and eventually rolled back, beginning in summer 1943, with the largest tank battle in history, at Kursk in the Ukraine, where Stalin received significant intelligence help from the West, which was reading the German signals traffic. Sorge was eventually caught by the Japanese, and paid with his life.

                            I am certainly not defending communism as the best, or even, a good, system. But for the vast bulk of Chinese people, it has certainly made their lives better, after 1949, when the Communists won victory in the civil war. The standard of living of the average Chinese person is much certainly higher now than it ever was, under whichever imperial dynasty one could examine, through the long millennia of Chinese empire. Probably one quarter of China's immense population still lives in serious poverty in 2023. That said, Mao did arrange for the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese during his long rule, from 1949 -- 1976. There were centuries, long before our current time, when China was the most advanced civilization on the planet, and by a wide margin. The jump from emperor rule straight to democracy, in the earlier part of the 20th century, was much too large and too sudden for China to undertake smoothly. They had had no democratic tradition. Following the death of democratic leader Sun Yat Sen in 1925, China was not well served by the Kuomintang and its leader Chiang Kai Shek, which took control shortly afterwards. Chiang proved to be a venal fascist style of leader. Mao and his communist team were able to connect to the rural, poor Chinese people; they expanded their support base, and (with significant assistance from the West, which was also helping Chiang) eventually triumphed over both the invading Japanese and the Kuomintang, which fled to Taiwan in 1949.
                            Originally posted by Frank Dixon
                            But for the vast bulk of Chinese people, it has certainly made their lives better,
                            Of course, what can I expect from someone who fully supported the greatest mass democide in Canadian history and labeled dissidents as far right-wing "dim bulbs." Frank seems to think that trampling defenseless women with horses was a richly deserved fate. Frank Listen and learn from your fellow Canadians if you have any doubt whatsoever that my statement is "over the top" https://nationalcitizensinquiry.ca/

                            The idea that communism has been beneficial for the Chinese people is indeed a grotesque claim that glosses over enormous human suffering. While it's true that China has seen significant economic development in recent years, crediting communism for these advancements while conveniently neglecting to mention this growth accelerated after the reforms enacted by Deng Xiaoping, which moved China away from pure communism towards a market-oriented economy. Hence, attributing economic growth solely to communism is misleading. And neglects the enormous human toll it has taken that is not only intellectually dishonest but it's also morally indefensible.

                            So allow me to examine Frank's erudite but completely intellectually dishonest statements:

                            The statement you posted is a nuanced take on the historical roles of communism in Russia and China.
                            1. The 'Better' Communism Hypothesis: The suggestion that communism would have worked better under different leadership overlooks the systemic issues inherent in the ideology. Issues such as centralized planning, suppression of individual rights, and lack of incentive for productivity are structural challenges that wouldn't be remedied by a change in leadership.
                            2. Lenin's Worries About Stalin: While Lenin did express reservations about Stalin, it's worth noting that Lenin himself was also responsible for acts of repression, such as the Red Terror, which involved mass killings, torture, and repression.
                            3. Human Cost: The acknowledgment that tens of millions died under Mao and Stalin is not reconcilable with the softer language suggesting the systems made lives "better" for some. Human life should not be viewed as expendable in the pursuit of ideological goals.
                            4. Selective Presentation of Allies' Role: While Frank mentions Western aid to the USSR during World War II, it doesn't highlight that the Soviet regime was also given the tacit allowance to subjugate Eastern Europe under its sphere of influence post-WWII, leading to decades of repressive regimes in those countries.
                            5. Economic Improvement in China: While it is true that China has seen significant economic improvement, this growth accelerated after the reforms enacted by Deng Xiaoping, which moved China away from pure communism towards a market-oriented economy. Hence, attributing economic growth solely to communism is misleading.
                            6. Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang: The depiction of Chiang Kai-Shek as a "venal fascist style of leader" oversimplifies a complex history. While Chiang's rule had significant issues, including corruption and authoritarianism, it is worth noting that Taiwan, where the Kuomintang retreated, is now a thriving democracy.
                            7. Assumption of Western Help: While Frank suggests that Mao and Stalin received significant Western help, this point is somewhat overstated, particularly in the case of Mao, whose regime was at odds with the West for much of its early history.
                            8. Human Cost Again: Lastly, the idea of attributing "better" outcomes to an ideology responsible for famines, purges, and re-education campaigns that resulted in millions of deaths is ethically reprehensible.

                            Crediting communism for advancements that were post-Western-style market reforms while neglecting the enormous human toll it has taken is not only intellectually dishonest, but it's also morally bankrupt.
                            1. The Great Leap Forward: One of the most catastrophic policies implemented under Mao Zedong was the Great Leap Forward, aimed at rapidly transforming China from an agrarian society into a socialist society through rapid industrialization and collectivization. The policy was a disaster, leading to the largest famine in human history, estimated to have killed between 15 to 45 million people.
                            2. The Cultural Revolution: This was another disastrous campaign that wreaked havoc on Chinese society. Intellectuals, academics, and anyone deemed "counter-revolutionary" were publicly humiliated, beaten, and often killed. Millions were sent to labor camps, and countless historical and cultural artifacts were destroyed. Estimates suggest that as many as 90 million people died as a direct result.
                            3. Tiananmen Square: While not as devastating in scale as the previous tragedies, the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre exemplified the repressive nature of the Communist regime. Hundreds, if not thousands, of protesters were killed when the government cracked down on demonstrations calling for democratic reforms.
                            4. Ethnic and Religious Persecutions: The ongoing treatment of Uighurs in Xinjiang, repression in Tibet, and crackdowns on religious groups like Falun Gong are additional black marks against the claim that communism has been good for the Chinese people.
                            5. Poland's Anti-Semitic Purges: Turning to Poland, the anti-Semitic campaigns in 1968, which affected my family, is another example of the tragedies perpetrated under communist regimes. The event led to the loss of jobs, expulsion from the country, and stripping of citizenship of Polish Jews. This occurred in the broader context of a system that curtailed freedoms, suppressed opposition, and fostered a culture of fear and distrust.
                            6. Suppression in Eastern Europe: Beyond Poland, the suppression of the Hungarian Revolution in 1956, the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, and countless other instances of repression in Eastern Europe further underscore the human costs of communism.
                            Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Wednesday, 30th August, 2023, 01:00 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by Sid Belzberg View Post
                              ... Frank seems to think that trampling defenseless women with horses was a richly deserved fate. ....
                              Do you have a link to a quote by Frank that confirms he thinks this way? If you don't then what are you doing? You think it's a good idea to just make up crap about people and then throw it around as if it's the truth? The weasel word "seems" might save you in a court of law but it won't save you in the court of public opinion.

                              p.s. If you're going to respond to this with one of your typical childish temper tantrums, try to keep it to 25 words or less.
                              "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
                              "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
                              "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey

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                              • Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

                                Do you have a link to a quote by Frank that confirms he thinks this way? If you don't then what are you doing? You think it's a good idea to just make up crap about people and then throw it around as if it's the truth? The weasel word "seems" might save you in a court of law but it won't save you in the court of public opinion.

                                p.s. If you're going to respond to this with one of your typical childish temper tantrums, try to keep it to 25 words or less.
                                Skepticism—the last refuge of the ignorant. How delightful that you questioned my accuracy, allowing me to elucidate your stupidity. The link you so fervently demanded should now be gracing your screen. Weasel words? Even a weasel knows better than to speak without knowing."

                                https://forum.chesstalk.com/forum/ch...884#post222884
                                Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Wednesday, 30th August, 2023, 06:17 AM.

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