Democratic Marxism

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

All laws are based on the moral/ethical dicta: treat others as you would have them treat you; Help the stranger; do no harm.

The plethora of laws are to make clear and precise what not to do......because.........failing to follow the law has great risk of harm to others .......so we have signal lights to lower the risk of accidents. Laws must be precise and clear, since it is a successful argument that one cannot be convicted where the law is "vague".

As a lawyer, I predict a plethora of cases involving all kinds of citizens' different interpretations of situations trying to apply your one proposed Natural Law. It is because, though the general concept is clear, its application on the ground is vague, and subject to all kinds of competing arguments as to its application in a particular situation. The systems of police, lawyers, judges and prisons will be overwhelmed.

I believe this is why the other versions of Libertarianism we have investigated, have not repealed all laws, and make no mention of the fundamental, to you, Natural Law.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

All laws are based on the moral/ethical dicta: treat others as you would have them treat you; Help the stranger; do no harm.

The plethora of laws are to make clear and precise what not to do......because.........failing to follow the law has great risk of harm to others .......so we have signal lights to lower the risk of accidents. Laws must be precise and clear, since it is a successful argument that one cannot be convicted where the law is "vague".

As a lawyer, I predict a plethora of cases involving all kinds of citizens' different interpretations of situations trying to apply your one proposed Natural Law. It is because, though the general concept is clear, its application on the ground is vague, and subject to all kinds of competing arguments as to its application in a particular situation. The systems of police, lawyers, judges and prisons will be overwhelmed.

I believe this is why the other versions of Libertarianism we have investigated, have not repealed all laws, and make no mention of the fundamental, to you, Natural Law.

Bob A

Bob, today, all courts from the supreme court down to the small claims courts, are overwhelmed by a plethora of complicated cases leading to huge costs and unacceptable delays in the delivery of justice. If it were not for the suffering involved, it would have been called 'a comedy of errors'! As an example, politicians first create the erroneous system of progressive taxation; next, to please their capitalist donors, they create a myriad of laws to enable these oligarchs to avoid paying taxes (you very well know how Trump legally has avoided paying personal taxes over the years), and to prevent the common man from competing with them; then when they realize that their tax collections are falling short of their also erroneous socialist give-away policies, the politicians create more laws to try and restrict the use of tax loopholes they themselves created, and so on and so forth this comedy of errors continues to generate cases like Trump's hush money trial in which a guy makes a handsome payment to a prostitute, which his wife does not mind, and his political opponents find complicated, inherently self-contradicting laws to charge him, criminally, timing the court proceedings with the campaigning season for the guy's presidential bid, wasting taxpayers money for something which had harmed no one to speak of, and had only helped the prostitute make a decent amount of money, etc. etc. ...

[Sid Belzberg]

Depopulation/World Control "Conspiracy" Theory

A movement of people assert that this is NOT a "theory".

For them, a partly clandestine/partly public coalition of evil forces are a "fact", AND, this is their mission. This coalition is bent on depopulating Earth, and then asserting dictatorial control over the humans left.They have formal papers and videos interpreting world events as evidence of their evaluation.

In terms of this coalition's strategies, they point to their view on:

1. the recent COVID-19 pandemic.
2. the use of lethal medications.
3. a false presentation of negative climate change.

This evil coalition has in its strategy the use of both private and public international bodies: World Economic Forum (WEF - private organization - President: Klaus Schwab - has convinced a number of current politicians in various countries to adopt their policies); United Nations (Public); UN Agencies such as the World Health Organization (Public). Please see the Post # 295 (24/4/27) above by Sid Belzberg, one of the proponents of this coalition.

First of all, have I captured adequately the position of those concerned about this coalition on this mission?

If so, Sid has challenged those opposed to bring forward specific objections, and evidence, that shows their position to be fanciful, merely another "conspiracy" theory.

Let's start off with: How many CT'ers support Sid's position? Are we dealing with a "real" concern of many humans, or just a very few?

Bob A

For the sake of accuracy, "3. a false presentation of negative climate change" This is a false presentation of the cause and extent of negative climate change, as evidenced by the fact that the IPCC includes urban hotspots that only take up 4% of the Earth's land surface in their global temperature estimates.

[Pargat Perrer]

I would like to clarify something re my posts on Libertarianism, as a Democratic Marxist.

One should always be more knowledgeable about what one is opposing than the proponents.

It seems that Libertarianism most recently has emerged from the shadows.

NOT Dilip's version of UtopiaLibertarianism!!!!

The Libertarianism that is organized into political parties in the developed world does NOT include the two main pillars of Dilip's version:
- no mention of Natural Law
- no mention of offering easy access to capital for anyone with a business idea

and of course, we know why: both ideas are unworkable.

It has taken time and many posts to put together a clear framework for Dilip's version of Libertarianism. It seems Dilip approves of my last version of his position (Post # 290 - 24/4/24).

Now it is time for opponents to clearly state to Dilip why his version is not implementable on the ground, if it is not.

We have also noted the Libertarian Government of Argentina......what version of Libertarianism is being followed there? And what are its downsides?

There exists the Libertarian Party of Canada - Pargat Perrer has presented some posts outlining where it differs from Dilip's version.

Argentina has been done here already with my posts about

- police using water cannons on citizens who are protesting the lack of FOOD -- Argentina becoming a police state.
- no easy access to capital offered to the 70,000+ fired government workers
- no Natural Law

The unworkability of Dilip's UtopiaLibertarianism has also been covered by me:

- Natural Law "Do No Harm To Others, No Exceptions" would require immediate cessation of all use of fossil fuels and toxic "forever chemicals". Society would shut down

Dilip in his latest post now admits that even under Natural Law there would be "unavoidable" harm done to others. Ha!
- ANY EXCEPTION to Natural Law would allow anyone to LEGALLY challenge Natural Law! No one could be prevented from doing harm to others.

So there you have it. Argentina becoming a police state with no easy capital for businesses, and UtopiaLiberianism being unworkable because of exceptions granted to Natural Law in effect making the law moot, and because of inability to just hand easy loans to any shmuck with a business idea (a repeat of the dot-com crash would result).

Ok, Bob A? Please stop saying this has not been covered!

Lastly, MP Pierre Polievre, Leader of the Conservative Party, Canada's opposition party, has described his personal politics as "Libertarian-leaning". So what elements of Libertarianism will become Conservative Party policy when the Conservatives win the next Canadian federal election and become government (As indicated absolutely by all continuing polls; a majority government?; continuing the tradition of Stephen Harper?)?

Bob A

I have stated in this thread that i believe what we have now -- constant swinging back and forth between MODERATE right- and left-wing administrations -- is the best we can hope for. Polievre would be just another chapter in that story. He would not institute Natural Law, nor offer easy loans / grants to any person of any background, even no business experience whatsoever, who has a business idea.

Therefore with Polievre we just continue the cyclic nature of our system, as we have had for decades now.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hey Bob,
Your friend, the nasty troll, is boiling away that despite his bullshit postings, Peter McKillop and you, and nearly everyone including pre-teenage children, can clearly understand that fair competition, like a game of chess, can result in some harm to the loser, despite the competition having been conducted without using unfair means, and that is why the Natural Law demands: Do no harm to others, except in fair competition; that has been the basis of human society in all corners of this world evolving! This nasty troll must be feeling very lonely in his trolling (against Sid and me and at times against Peter and many others, and now even against you!) ... poor guy...

[Pargat Perrer]

Hey Bob,
Your friend, the nasty troll, is boiling away that despite his bullshit postings, Peter McKillop and you, and nearly everyone including pre-teenage children, can clearly understand that fair competition, like a game of chess, can result in some harm to the loser, despite the competition having been conducted without using unfair means, and that is why the Natural Law demands: Do no harm to others, except in fair competition; that has been the basis of human society in all corners of this world evolving! This nasty troll must be feeling very lonely in his trolling (against Sid and me and at times against Peter and many others, and now even against you!) ... poor guy...

LOL there is nothing for me to be "boiling away" about, your Dreamland LIbertarianism is nowhere near reality anywhere in the world and no one will ever want it.

You defined "fair competition" as using no means that harms others. Fossil fuels harm others, therefore cannot be used as means in competition. The result of the competition doesn't matter, what matters is the means of competing. Burning fossil fuels harms others, cannot be used as a means of competition.

You can try and weasel your way out of that using chess as an example, people are just laughing at you. The result of the chess game, yes, a winner and a loser. But no one can smoke cigarettes over the table and blow the smoke into the other person's eyes as a means of competition. That's what burning fossil fuels is like.

By the way ... the fact that there are winners and losers in competition .... in business there are very few winners and at least 10 times as many losers ... and this is why your Utopia goal of giving capital to any schmuck with a business idea cannot work. Your pea brain cannot process that fundamental truth.

The pea brain will keep trying ...... why don't you join the Amish community if a simple life is what you are after? Ah yes, they have faith in a God, and you are Godless. Well, not quite .... for you, man is God and will achieve immortality on his own ....

[Bob Armstrong]

This thread has gotten itself into a lot of controversy........beyond the workability of Democratic Marxism.....

An examination of Libertarianism has brought forward the many disparate streams of this wild west Capitalist system, which has just recently emerged from the shadows. And there is serious debate about the workability of the theoretical versions, and the one's now on the ground (Argentina).

We are also delving into the "fact" alleged by some of an "Evil Coalition" that seeks world depopulation, and then dictatorial control of the humans left. Part of their strategy involved the COVID-19 pandemic, and now the alleged, in their view, false climate emergency.

So I'd like to raise another issue, which is classed by the majority, as just another "conspiracy theory": Deep State

"A deep state is a type of government made up of potentially secret and unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. In popular usage, the term carries overwhelmingly negative connotations." Wikipedia

The basic concern is that democracy is being neutralized. No matter which party on the political spectrum becomes government, it is not their agenda that will end up being implemented. Rather it will still be the agenda of this somewhat permanent "back government" that continues on in the Bureaucracy (And other continuing independent non-government power networks associated with it).

Here is a recent video examining this issue: "Who is the Deep State?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWxh2oS7Ays)

What do CT'ers think of this one?

Bob A (Dem. Marxist)

[Sid Belzberg]

This thread has gotten itself into a lot of controversy........beyond the workability of Democratic Marxism.....

An examination of Libertarianism has brought forward the many disparate streams of this wild west Capitalist system, which has just recently emerged from the shadows. And there is serious debate about the workability of the theoretical versions, and the one's now on the ground (Argentina).

We are also delving into the "fact" alleged by some of an "Evil Coalition" that seeks world depopulation, and then dictatorial control of the humans left. Part of their strategy involved the COVID-19 pandemic, and now the alleged, in their view, false climate emergency.

So I'd like to raise another issue, which is classed by the majority, as just another "conspiracy theory": Deep State

"A deep state is a type of government made up of potentially secret and unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. In popular usage, the term carries overwhelmingly negative connotations." Wikipedia

The basic concern is that democracy is being neutralized. No matter which party on the political spectrum becomes government, it is not their agenda that will end up being implemented. Rather it will still be the agenda of this somewhat permanent "back government" that continues on in the Bureaucracy (And other continuing independent non-government power networks associated with it).

Here is a recent video examining this issue: "Who is the Deep State?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWxh2oS7Ays)

What do CT'ers think of this one?

Bob A (Dem. Marxist)

Bob, you constantly appeal to the lemming-like majority, Here are some lessons to be learned from the last four years

1) People would rather be in the majority than be right.
2)People would rather commit to being wrong than admit they were wrong. -
3)The human mind can be programmed quickly and relatively easily, for better or for worse -
4)One of the few things that rivals fear besides death is the fear of societal abandonment.
5)When push comes to shove, all morality is thrown out the window in the name of the greater good.

You appear to be living proof of this mindset.

The questions you ask about the CIA and their attempts to get lemming-like compliance out of the population were brought to light in US Senate investigations in 1975.

The CIA's MKULTRA program was a covert, illegal human research program run by the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States, which started in the early 1950s and "officially halted in 1973". The program was designed to develop techniques for use in interrogations and to control human behaviors

The experiments conducted under MKULTRA involved numerous methods to manipulate individual mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs and other chemicals, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, as well as various forms of torture. The aim was to find a reliable way to control individuals.

The existence of MKULTRA was first brought to public attention in 1975 through the investigations of the Church Committee of the U.S. Senate and a presidential commission known as the Rockefeller Commission. The revelation of MKULTRA prompted a significant public outcry over the ethics and legality of such experiments, largely conducted without the knowledge or consent of the subjects, sparking intense controversy about the extent and nature of government-sanctioned abuses that sadly continue to this day despite these revelations.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Bob, you constantly appeal to the lemming-like majority, Here are some lessons to be learned from the last four years

1) People would rather be in the majority than be right.
2)People would rather commit to being wrong than admit they were wrong. -
3)The human mind can be programmed quickly and relatively easily, for better or for worse -
4)One of the few things that rivals fear of death is fear of societal abandonment.
5)When push comes to shove, all morality is thrown out the window in the name of the greater good.

Well put, Sid. That is why I say that we cannot use democracy to steal away individual freedom, and even Bob realizes that democratically chosen governments can amend the constitution and its human rights laws, in order to steal away individual freedom. The only 'governance' system which no one can have any objections to (though some may troll it), is the enforcement of the Natural Law...

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Dilip:

All laws are based on the moral/ethical dicta: treat others as you would have them treat you; Help the stranger; do no harm.

The plethora of laws are to make clear and precise what not to do......because.........failing to follow the law has great risk of harm to others .......so we have signal lights to lower the risk of accidents. Laws must be precise and clear, since it is a successful argument that one cannot be convicted where the law is "vague".

As a lawyer, I predict a plethora of cases involving all kinds of citizens' different interpretations of situations trying to apply your one proposed Natural Law. It is because, though the general concept is clear, its application on the ground is vague, and subject to all kinds of competing arguments as to its application in a particular situation. The systems of police, lawyers, judges and prisons will be overwhelmed.

I believe this is why the other versions of Libertarianism we have investigated, have not repealed all laws, and make no mention of the fundamental, to you, Natural Law.

Bob A

Bob A, I am no longer going to respond to any of Dilip's posts. I have successfully repudiated all his notions, and have shown that the two pillars of his Dreamlane Libertarianism, namely (1) Natural Law, and (2) easy access to literally ANYONE who wants to start a business, are both unworkable.

Bob, you have started 4 ongoing threads in this forum. All 4 have become poisoned by Dilip and his trolling for his Dreamland Libertarianism, and you have allowed this to happen. For the record, I went back a little bit (but not all the way) in all 4 threads. Here are Dilip's trolling posts in the threads where they should not be:

Climate Change thread -- posts 1958, 1961, 1966, 1068...

Trump thread: post 161, 175, 229...

Life thread: post 106, 109, 119, 130, 140, 142, 150...

You have allowed this to happen by granting far too much legitimacy to Dilip's views. Libertarians are about 1% of the population, and supporters of Dilip's brand of Libertarianism are about 1% of that, so do the math and realize where you are going wrong.

Now you are having to resort to trying to channel all discussion of LIbertarianism to this thread, the only thread of the 4 that it should exist. And you can't do it because Dilip just keeps on trolling.

Just stop responding to him. Let him troll all he likes, no one is buying his miracle cure that isn't a cure for anything except Dilip's angst problems.

[Bob Armstrong]

Geez.....

1. Democratic Marxism
2. Libertarianism
3. Depopulation/ World Control Allegation
a. Climate Change as a strategy
b. COVID-19 as a strategy
c. Medication Abuse as a strategy
4. Deep State Allegation

Seems I've got everybody on all sides upset with me for something..........

I must, then, I guess, be doing something RIGHT!

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism
(Started: 24/1/3)

Weekly Overview

Notes:

1. The “Weekly Overview” of the topic is posted for the benefit of new members who may have come in between the “Weekly Overviews”. It provides an executive summary of the issue for new viewers.
2. The Stats of participation are important to allow all to determine the extent of continuing interest. For thread originators/responders, they are important to see if the interest no longer warrants the labour. Or alternatively, they show that those of us discussing it are drawing in more participants, because they have begun to see the importance of our topic

A. Statistics


1. Weekly Stats:

Week # 17 (24/4/22 – 28 [7 days])

(Sometimes Adjusted for no. of days)


.....................................................2024 Average
Last Week's......Prior Week's........Views/Day
Views/Day........Views/Day.............(17 wks.)

….…41.....................9.......................28


................................................2024 Average

Last Week's.....Prior Week's......Responses/Day

Responses/Day....Resp./Day.......(17 wks.).

........4......................1.......................3

2. Analysis of Last Week's Stats

Last week's stats took off again and ran well ahead of the prior week's, and those of 2024 so far.

This was spurred by the introduction of a number of new topics into the DM thread, in terms of DM response to them. More discussion/increased participation does happen when a current controversial issue is brought into the thread.

The thread involves discussion of current political affairs from the different perspectives of the various participants.

Fundamentally, though, this thread is an “educational” thread about something that may not be that attractive to some CT'ers. Nonetheless, the stats for this thread (Per day: Views – 28; Responses - 3) are good, and not that far below many other active threads in the Non-chess forum.

The stats do show that CT'ers are interested in learning more about DM, and about government from the DM perspective. This thread is an opportunity to learn something about the political system known as “Democratic Marxism”! It is also an opportunity to question DM in a good and safe forum, where we try to respect the right of all CT'ers to have their own analysis, and to be entitled to put it forward for consideration, even if differing from DM.

Note: I, as originator/main poster, am now just posting about 1 DM discussion paper per week, near the start of the week. But I do try to respond to response questions, and introduce new current topics when they seem appropriate. So, overall, the stats should be expected to slowly come down a bit.


B. Goal of this Thread

• To make clear what Democratic Marxism is, and what it is not (Old-style USSR Communism)
• To provide materials that help CT'ers analyze the pluses and minuses of DM.

Additional Notes:

1. The goal of this thread is not to try to beat opposing views into oblivion. Political economy spans the spectrum. Every position is entitled to post as it sees fit, regardless of the kind of, and amount of, postings by other positions. What is wanted is serious consideration of all posts........then you decide among the many competing political philosophies.

2. CT'ers are welcome to post responses here regularly, in addition to our core group of very active responders.


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[Dilip Panjwani]

Geez.....

1. Democratic Marxism
2. Libertarianism
3. Depopulation/ World Control Allegation
a. Climate Change as a strategy
b. COVID-19 as a strategy
c. Medication Abuse as a strategy
4. Deep State Allegation

Seems I've got everybody on all sides upset with me for something..........

I must, then, I guess, be doing something RIGHT!

Bob A

Bob, Never hesitate to post well thought of views ... even if some troll asks you to stop...
All the best!

[Pargat Perrer]

Bob, Never hesitate to post well thought of views ... even if some troll asks you to stop...
All the best!

Of course he cannot and should not want to stop anyone from posting ....

but he could stop giving posts like yours any legitimacy by responding to them.

[Dilip Panjwani]

And Bob, never hesitate to respond thoughtfully to whichever post you feel like responding, despite some troll, to whom hardly anyone responds, asking you not to... Have fun and advance your understanding of Libertarianism!