Democratic Marxism

[Bob Gillanders]

Universal Basic Income (UBI)

UBI is a simple and eloquent idea, it has my full support.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ-p...nnel=TEDxTalks

Dilip will never agree, no sense trying to convince him.

[Peter McKillop]

Nobody gets sacrificed to anything in Libertarianism. In fact, enforcement of the Natural Law ensures that the rich cannot harm the not so rich. And the not so rich are given easy access to capital to be able to work hard and smart and build their own lives, if they wish to...
In DM, fairness and betterment of society get sacrificed to the political need to rob the minority and transfer that stolen wealth to the majority, in order to win the majority vote.
Understand, Bob?

1. Can you give us a specific example of a provision in the "Natural Law" that would protect the "not so rich" from exploitation by the rich?
2. Who would draw up and codify this Natural Law? By any chance would it be .... the rich, i.e. the people who have the wealth and power to put themselves in charge?
3. If your answer to question 2 is yes, it would be the rich, then where would this spirit of egalitarianism come from whereby the powerful would enact laws to protect the not-wealthy from the wealthy? I'm asking this question because you've previously expressed admiration for Peter Thiel, a wealthy individual, who has made it clear that he feels no obligation to help those less fortunate than he is. And Thiel is not alone among his fellow billionaires. So in your libertarian world, Dilip, where will all of these powerful Boy Scouts come from?

[Dilip Panjwani]

1. Can you give us a specific example of a provision in the "Natural Law" that would protect the "not so rich" from exploitation by the rich?
2. Who would draw up and codify this Natural Law? By any chance would it be .... the rich, i.e. the people who have the wealth and power to put themselves in charge?
3. If your answer to question 2 is yes, it would be the rich, then where would this spirit of egalitarianism come from whereby the powerful would enact laws to protect the not-wealthy from the wealthy? I'm asking this question because you've previously expressed admiration for Peter Thiel, a wealthy individual, who has made it clear that he feels no obligation to help those less fortunate than he is. And Thiel is not alone among his fellow billionaires. So in your libertarian world, Dilip, where will all of these powerful Boy Scouts come from?

Hi Peter,
No one needs to codify the Natural Law...it has always been the same and will always be the same: 'No one can harm anyone, except in fair competition' (and we have discussed what this means, previously). The main, overwhelming responsibility of the 'government' (duly 'elected' in the circles within circles set-up) will be to enforce this Natural Law rigorously. Those who are found to be committing the offences (or deliberately filing frivolous suits) would be the primary bearers of the cost of this enforcement, besides a small amount of indirect taxation on all (and of course those who spend more will end up paying more of this). The thousands of silly and self-contradicting laws which now exist will no longer be necessary...

The main rationale for Marxism, ensuring that the 'workers' are paid a fair wage, will be more than adequately realized by Libertarianism's provision of easy access to capital, as the demand for 'workers' will multiply, and the supply drop, enabling the workers to successfully demand better wages simply by market forces...

And for all you know, the guys who feel 'no obligation' to help may in fact be the most charitable individuals in our society, doing charity out of love and kindness, and not obligation.

[Pargat Perrer]

Okay! So the hard and smart working tax payers have to pay for the Leisure activities of all Marxists too!! Add that to your DM principles, Bob!!!

Yes, exactly .... because it is a business expense. If you run a business with many workers, and you want your workers happy and productive, you pay taxes so that the government makes their lives happy and healthy. As a businessperson, you understand that this is a necessary business expense.

Of course, you can always be a Scrooge and penny pinch to the extreme and even refuse to pay taxes, maybe via fraud or maybe using legitimate loopholes. Buf if your penny-pinching results in many workers leaving, and you have to go through the hiring process again and again, and you have trouble finding qualified candidates ... you will eventually realize you need to stop the penny-pinching.

You see, Dilip, your fantasyland utopia of everyone becoming an entrepreneur because they have "easy access to capital" LOL can never be realized. It's certainly not happening in "Libertarian" Argentina. One reason it can't happen is that every business in order to grow needs workers. Workers are people who don't want or need to become entrepreneurs. They just want a steady job that they enjoy and that pays the bills. There are many of these people and they exist under all political systems. And all the systems, all the nations, need these people.

If you give them all free money (free because you will likely never get it back, as in the 2000 dot-com bubble), and tell them "go start your own business, be smart and hard-working", 90% of them will not achieve that. But if we imagine that they DID try and run their own business, guess what? No labor force! No workers! You have to offer HUGE wages and benefits to get someone to accept being a worker.

You have no understanding of basic economics.

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Peter,
No one needs to codify the Natural Law...it has always been the same and will always be the same: 'No one can harm anyone, except in fair competition' (and we have discussed what this means, previously).

Yes ... you defined fair as "using no means to harm others". And so the "except in fair competition" can be removed and Natural Law basically says "No one can harm anyone, period." which of course means all use of fossil fuels must stop immediately because it harms everyone!!!

You wrote "Those who are found to be committing the offences (or deliberately filing frivolous suits) would be the primary bearers of the cost of this enforcement". So any company using fossil fuels must pay ongoing fines until they cease using fossil fuel.

You have to find another definition for "fair". THAT IS THE PART THAT HAS TO BE CODIFIED, SO PETER IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THIS CODIFICATION.

Under your definition, the fair competition clause is NO CLAUSE AT ALL.

... The main rationale for Marxism, ensuring that the 'workers' are paid a fair wage, will be more than adequately realized by Libertarianism's provision of easy access to capital, as the demand for 'workers' will multiply, and the supply drop, enabling the workers to successfully demand better wages simply by market forces...
.....

ahhh yes, for sure the supply of workers WILL drop. Resulting in much higher wages, resulting in higher inflation, resulting in businesses going out of business because they can't find cheap workers, but Chinese and other non-Libertarian nations will have plenty of low-wage workers and wlll undercut your prices until you are out of business.

This "easy capital" (free money, basically) skews the market causing economic chaos .... until everything corrects itself and we end up with what we have now .... a sustainable balance between entrepreneurs and workers.

Meanwhile, the providers of "easy capital" are also going out of business, not getting ROI. People who aren't meant to ever be entrepreneurs, who can't run a business, who go bankrupt in droves, will also cause chaos in the market AS HAPPENED IN THE 2000 DOT COM BUBBLE.

You just can't admit that this dream of yours is fundamentally FLAWED. It was tried and it failed spectacularly.

[Pargat Perrer]

1. Can you give us a specific example of a provision in the "Natural Law" that would protect the "not so rich" from exploitation by the rich?
2. Who would draw up and codify this Natural Law? By any chance would it be .... the rich, i.e. the people who have the wealth and power to put themselves in charge?
3. If your answer to question 2 is yes, it would be the rich, then where would this spirit of egalitarianism come from whereby the powerful would enact laws to protect the not-wealthy from the wealthy? I'm asking this question because you've previously expressed admiration for Peter Thiel, a wealthy individual, who has made it clear that he feels no obligation to help those less fortunate than he is. And Thiel is not alone among his fellow billionaires. So in your libertarian world, Dilip, where will all of these powerful Boy Scouts come from?

Peter, why do you even try to get a proper answer from this clueless cultist? You KNOW he has no proper answers to give!

This just keeps going around in circles, you are all just dogs chasing your tail.

[Dilip Panjwani]

UBI is a simple and eloquent idea, it has my full support.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ-p...nnel=TEDxTalks

Thanks for the link to the video, Bob G.
The government gave up the idea because:
1. The majority were unhappy with it.
2. It led to the majority of 'net recipients' resorting to laziness/leisure.
3. The government would have to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers who currently 'work' on the programs UBI is meant to replace.
4. The corrupt politicians' corrupt friends in business would never allow the discontinuation of 'corporate subsidy'.
5. Because UBI is universal and straightforward, the corrupt politicians would not be able to buy votes by 'selling' the programs which UBI would be replacing to the special interest groups enjoying those programs.

Libertarianism provides a much more workable and fairer solution to betterment of society....

[Peter McKillop]

Peter, why do you even try to get a proper answer from this clueless cultist? You KNOW he has no proper answers to give!

This just keeps going around in circles, you are all just dogs chasing your tail.

Just trying to stay in practice.

[Pargat Perrer]

Just trying to stay in practice.

LOL ok .... but it's kind of mean, making Dilip think he actually has a captive audience who are thinking his nonsense might have some viability. We all know he's never going to see his version of Libertarianism, he will die of old age still saying "enforce natural law .... easy access to capital .... enforce natural law .... easy access to capital ...." in a delerium.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Just trying to stay in practice.

Do not hesitate to let me know if you need any more clarifications...

[Vlad Drkulec]

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title
This masterwork is much more than a refutation of the economics of socialism (although on that front, nothing else compares). It is also a critique of the implicit religious doctrines behind Western socialist thinking, a cultural critique of socialist teaching on sex and marriage, an examination of the implications of radical human inequality, an attack on war socialism, and refutation of collectivist methodology. In short, Mises set out to refute socialism, and instead yanked out the egalitarian mentality from its very roots. For that reason, Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis led dozens of famous intellectuals, including a young F.A. Hayek, into a crisis of faith and a realist/libertarian political orientation. All the collectivist literature combined cannot equal the intellectual achievement of this one volume.



https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title
"We can't sit at the feet of Mises at his famous Vienna private seminar. We can't go back in time and attend his New York seminar, or follow him to the speaking engagements that he held in the 1950s and '60s.

But we do have access to what he said. He is warm, funny, passionate, and learned. This book provides a candid look at the man and his teaching style. It demonstrates his dazzling command over the material, and teaches in a breezier way than his treatises.

This volume contains nine lectures delivered over one week, from June 23 to July 3, 1952, at the San Francisco Public Library. Mises was at his prime as a teacher and lecturer. He shares a lifetime of learning on topics that were (and remain) central to American public life.

As the title indicates, his main focus is on Marxism. He discusses Marx and his place in the history of ideas, the destruction wrought by his dangerous ideology, the manner in which his followers have covered up his errors, and how the Marxists themselves have worked for so long to save Marxism from itself. He discusses Marxist claims about history and refutes the Marxist smear of the Industrial Revolution.

The approach is systematic but casual, so the reader encounters wonderful insights in the form of short asides. For example, "The worst thing that can happen to a socialist is to have his country ruled by socialists who are not his friends."

As a lecturer, Mises is steady and relentless. The reader can nearly "hear" him speaking through the prose. And there are times when he reveals a level of rhetorical passion that you would never encounter in print. That's because what is printed here are not prepared lectures. They were transcribed by Bettina Bien Greaves from what he actually said.

Thus can we hear this passage: "It is not true, as Marx said, that the improvements in technology are available only to the exploiters and that the masses are living in a state much worse than on the eve of the Industrial Revolution. Everything the Marxists say about exploitation is absolutely wrong! Lies! In fact, capitalism made it possible for many persons to survive who wouldn't have otherwise."

Some readers of Mises's larger works have said that while his rigor is dazzling, the man himself can seem remote. Whether or not you agree with this observation, Mises comes across in these lectures as brilliant but very warm and charming in an old world sense."

[Dilip Panjwani]

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title
This masterwork is much more than a refutation of the economics of socialism (although on that front, nothing else compares). It is also a critique of the implicit religious doctrines behind Western socialist thinking, a cultural critique of socialist teaching on sex and marriage, an examination of the implications of radical human inequality, an attack on war socialism, and refutation of collectivist methodology. In short, Mises set out to refute socialism, and instead yanked out the egalitarian mentality from its very roots. For that reason, Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis led dozens of famous intellectuals, including a young F.A. Hayek, into a crisis of faith and a realist/libertarian political orientation. All the collectivist literature combined cannot equal the intellectual achievement of this one volume.



https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title
"We can't sit at the feet of Mises at his famous Vienna private seminar. We can't go back in time and attend his New York seminar, or follow him to the speaking engagements that he held in the 1950s and '60s.

But we do have access to what he said. He is warm, funny, passionate, and learned. This book provides a candid look at the man and his teaching style. It demonstrates his dazzling command over the material, and teaches in a breezier way than his treatises.

This volume contains nine lectures delivered over one week, from June 23 to July 3, 1952, at the San Francisco Public Library. Mises was at his prime as a teacher and lecturer. He shares a lifetime of learning on topics that were (and remain) central to American public life.

As the title indicates, his main focus is on Marxism. He discusses Marx and his place in the history of ideas, the destruction wrought by his dangerous ideology, the manner in which his followers have covered up his errors, and how the Marxists themselves have worked for so long to save Marxism from itself. He discusses Marxist claims about history and refutes the Marxist smear of the Industrial Revolution.

The approach is systematic but casual, so the reader encounters wonderful insights in the form of short asides. For example, "The worst thing that can happen to a socialist is to have his country ruled by socialists who are not his friends."

As a lecturer, Mises is steady and relentless. The reader can nearly "hear" him speaking through the prose. And there are times when he reveals a level of rhetorical passion that you would never encounter in print. That's because what is printed here are not prepared lectures. They were transcribed by Bettina Bien Greaves from what he actually said.

Thus can we hear this passage: "It is not true, as Marx said, that the improvements in technology are available only to the exploiters and that the masses are living in a state much worse than on the eve of the Industrial Revolution. Everything the Marxists say about exploitation is absolutely wrong! Lies! In fact, capitalism made it possible for many persons to survive who wouldn't have otherwise."

Some readers of Mises's larger works have said that while his rigor is dazzling, the man himself can seem remote. Whether or not you agree with this observation, Mises comes across in these lectures as brilliant but very warm and charming in an old world sense."

Thanks, Vlad.
Yes, the system most aligned with realism is Libertarianism, while the most delusory is Marxism.

[Peter McKillop]

Thanks, Vlad.
Yes, the system most aligned with realism is Libertarianism, while the most delusory is Marxism.

As a broad generalization, there is nothing noteworthy in either extreme. One is based on a fairy tale and the other on control/repression.

"There is nothing healthy in being well-adjusted to a sick society".
- attributed to J. Krishnamurti

[Dilip Panjwani]

As a broad generalization, there is nothing noteworthy in either extreme. One is based on a fairy tale and the other on control/repression.

"There is nothing healthy in being well-adjusted to a sick society".
- attributed to J. Krishnamurti

Given the brain-washing done by a sick society, the promise of Libertarianism may sound like a fairy tale to you; you need to think beyond the biases of the sick society to understand its true potential!

[Sid Belzberg]

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title
This masterwork is much more than a refutation of the economics of socialism (although on that front, nothing else compares). It is also a critique of the implicit religious doctrines behind Western socialist thinking, a cultural critique of socialist teaching on sex and marriage, an examination of the implications of radical human inequality, an attack on war socialism, and refutation of collectivist methodology. In short, Mises set out to refute socialism, and instead yanked out the egalitarian mentality from its very roots. For that reason, Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis led dozens of famous intellectuals, including a young F.A. Hayek, into a crisis of faith and a realist/libertarian political orientation. All the collectivist literature combined cannot equal the intellectual achievement of this one volume.



https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title
"We can't sit at the feet of Mises at his famous Vienna private seminar. We can't go back in time and attend his New York seminar, or follow him to the speaking engagements that he held in the 1950s and '60s.

But we do have access to what he said. He is warm, funny, passionate, and learned. This book provides a candid look at the man and his teaching style. It demonstrates his dazzling command over the material, and teaches in a breezier way than his treatises.

This volume contains nine lectures delivered over one week, from June 23 to July 3, 1952, at the San Francisco Public Library. Mises was at his prime as a teacher and lecturer. He shares a lifetime of learning on topics that were (and remain) central to American public life.

As the title indicates, his main focus is on Marxism. He discusses Marx and his place in the history of ideas, the destruction wrought by his dangerous ideology, the manner in which his followers have covered up his errors, and how the Marxists themselves have worked for so long to save Marxism from itself. He discusses Marxist claims about history and refutes the Marxist smear of the Industrial Revolution.

The approach is systematic but casual, so the reader encounters wonderful insights in the form of short asides. For example, "The worst thing that can happen to a socialist is to have his country ruled by socialists who are not his friends."

As a lecturer, Mises is steady and relentless. The reader can nearly "hear" him speaking through the prose. And there are times when he reveals a level of rhetorical passion that you would never encounter in print. That's because what is printed here are not prepared lectures. They were transcribed by Bettina Bien Greaves from what he actually said.

Thus can we hear this passage: "It is not true, as Marx said, that the improvements in technology are available only to the exploiters and that the masses are living in a state much worse than on the eve of the Industrial Revolution. Everything the Marxists say about exploitation is absolutely wrong! Lies! In fact, capitalism made it possible for many persons to survive who wouldn't have otherwise."

Some readers of Mises's larger works have said that while his rigor is dazzling, the man himself can seem remote. Whether or not you agree with this observation, Mises comes across in these lectures as brilliant but very warm and charming in an old world sense."

Vlad, that is an excellent book; thanks for sharing. The whole thesis of Mises centers around "price signals" being a far more accurate data point for deciding how to allocate resources than any central committee of bumbling corrupt bureaucrats could ever achieve.

Price Signals as Information Aggregators

In a free market, prices serve as signals that aggregate and convey vast amounts of information about supply and demand. These signals are generated through the interactions of numerous individuals and firms, each acting on their own local knowledge and preferences. This decentralized process allows for a more accurate and dynamic reflection of market conditions than any centralized committee could achieve

.Efficient Resource Allocation

Price signals guide resource allocation by indicating where resources are most valued. When prices are high for a particular good or service, it signals that demand is strong relative to supply, encouraging producers to increase production and investors to allocate more resources to that sector. Conversely, low prices indicate weak demand or surplus supply, prompting producers to reduce production or shift resources to other areas

.Incentivizing Innovation and Efficiency

Prices also provide incentives for innovation and efficiency. Firms that can produce goods or services at lower costs can offer them at competitive prices, attracting more customers and increasing their market share. This competitive pressure drives continuous improvement in production methods, product quality, and service delivery.

Adaptability to Change

Market prices are highly responsive to changes in supply and demand conditions. When market conditions change (e.g., due to technological advancements, changes in consumer preferences, or natural disasters), prices adjust quickly to reflect these new conditions. This adaptability is vital for ensuring that resources are reallocated efficiently in response to changing circumstances

.Limitations of Central Planning

In contrast, centralized planning committees lack the detailed, localized knowledge and the dynamic feedback mechanisms that market prices provide. Without price signals, central planners must rely on incomplete and often outdated information, leading to inefficiencies and misallocations of resources. This is because no single entity or committee can gather and process the vast amount of information that is dispersed among market participants.

The Soviet Union

The Soviet Union's experience with central planning is often cited as an example of the failures of socialism in practice. Despite having vast resources and a highly educated workforce, the Soviet economy was plagued by inefficiencies, shortages, and misallocations due to the lack of market price signals. This led to chronic problems such as long queues for basic goods, poor product quality, and a general lack of innovation. Mises's argument that socialist systems cannot replicate the efficiency of market price signals is rooted in the understanding that prices are a powerful mechanism for aggregating information, incentivizing efficiency, and facilitating adaptive resource allocation. This critique remains the ultimate resource for market advocates for debates about the relative merits of market-based versus centrally planned economic systems