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I am trying to sort out what I would call "your theology".......it is somewhat different..........
1. There is some all-powerful Spiritual Creator.
2. S/he/It created immortal, non-material, eternal human souls.
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.
4. Most humans incorporate into their material world plan to have a conscience, and to practice understanding and empathy.
5. But, for this suffering to occur, Evil must exist in this material world in order to test us. We are also just materially suffering from the start because we need certain elements just to maintain our human, material life (Air, food, etc.). We also suffer from the fact that as material human beings, we not only have to have Maslow's basic hierarchy of needs, but we have "WANTS, beyond needs", and we sometimes suffer striving to achieve them. Our needs can never be eternally fulfilled here....we must one day die.
6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).
7. All creatures eventually go to Heaven (There is no Hell) and live without any needs ever being unmet.
Let me know where I've gotten it wrong.....I've inserted a few elements that seem to me required to make your theology seamless.
I'd be interested in what other CT'ers think of this as a "theology"!
Bob A
The only part you didn't get right is point 3 where you wrote "each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world... "...
No, the Creator doesn't force any soul to incarnate on Earth or any other planet in the Universe (there are billions of them, according to many NDEers). Instead, the Creator "offers each soul the opportunity to incarnate into a physical universe" and the soul can decide for itself. Most souls jump at the chance, because they know they will survive no matter how much suffering they go through, and the suffering advances their spiritual understanding.
Also, your point 6 is only relevant to those people of Earth who seem because of their evil nature to "have no soul" or no conscience. Hitler, Stalin, Trump, etc, etc, For the rest of the souls, practising evil is part of THEIR life plan, not part of the CREATOR'S plan. So the Hitlers and Stalins etc are required to set the environment at some particular time and place to be mostly evil in nature, and it is in this evil environment that human suffering can be enhanced for the good of all the souls who want to suffer here on Earth.
This "soul plan" idea is not really a theology in the sense of an invented system of thought. It is the message that comes back to us via those who have been allowed to briefly return to the other side via death, and then be returned after getting some information that is allowed to be spread to the incarnates on Earth. As such, there is no 'soul plan" church or movement. There doesn't need to be. No one needs to be "converted".
You are the real nutjob, PP. Despite showing you evidence a long time ago here on chesstalk that the guy you worship for near death experiences was a fraud, you continue to worship such fellas and their scientifically non-sensical theories...
My apologies for the inadvertance re Dilip........I was very interested in your view, and made the wrong assumption it was you who had made the rather extensive response. I will try to be more alert when we're engaged in posting.
I hope to further respond to both you and Dilip.
I believe that spirituality is one of the most important life "facts/ alleged facts" about which humans must decide before they die.
You are the real nutjob, PP. Despite showing you evidence a long time ago here on chesstalk that the guy you worship for near death experiences was a fraud, you continue to worship such fellas and their scientifically non-sensical theories...
You showed no such "evidence", you just gave your grossly uninformed opinion. In case readers are wondering who we are talking about, it is Dr. Eben Alexander, world-famous brain neurosurgeon, who inexplicably suffered a bout of viral encephalitis, went into a 7-day coma, during which the protective layer around his brain was totally destroyed. He only had a 10% chance of coming out of the coma, and no one had ever suffered so much damage and lived to tell about it, or else they were a total vegetable for the rest of their life. Dr. Alexander not only came out of the coma, he suffered NO BRAIN MALFUNCTION and doctors still to this day cannot explain it, and this is ALL MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED so that if Dilip's statement of fraud had any impact LOL, Dilip could be sued for libel.
I do not "worship" anybody except occasionally the Creator, something you will do when you return from where you came.
Inconsistencies that Dr. Eben Alexander did not address, and other issues.
Medical Discrepancies
Dr. Laura Potter, the emergency room physician who treated Alexander, contradicts his account. She states that Alexander was placed in a medically induced coma, not one caused by E. coli bacterial meningitis as he claims. Additionally, she notes that Alexander was conscious but delirious when weaned off anesthetics, which challenges his assertion that his brain was too damaged to support any conscious experience
.Inconsistencies in Alexander's Story
Alexander's book omits vittal details, such as the fact that his coma was chemically induced and maintained by anesthetics. This omission is significant because it alters the narrative of his experience and its implications for consciousness
.Legal and Professional Issues
Alexander has a history of malpractice lawsuits, with several settled in the last ten years. One of these cases involved allegations that he falsified medical records to cover up a surgical error. This history raises questions about his credibility and potential motives for fabricating or exaggerating his NDE
.Financial Motives
Alexander has financially benefited significantly from his NDE story, including selling webinars, books, and memberships to an organization he co-founded. This financial gain could be seen as a motive to embellish or fabricate his experience
.Response to Criticism
Despite the criticisms, Alexander has maintained that he stands by every word in his book. However, he has not adequately addressed the discrepancies medical professionals and investigative journalists pointed out.
.Given these points, it appears that there is substantial evidence to question the authenticity and accuracy of Dr. Eben Alexander's account of his near-death experience. While he remains steadfast in his claims, the medical community and investigative reports have raised significant doubts about his story.
Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Friday, 18th October, 2024, 09:29 PM.
Inconsistencies that Dr. Eben Alexander did not address, and other issues.
Medical Discrepancies
Dr. Laura Potter, the emergency room physician who treated Alexander, contradicts his account. She states that Alexander was placed in a medically induced coma, not one caused by E. coli bacterial meningitis as he claims. Additionally, she notes that Alexander was conscious but delirious when weaned off anesthetics, which challenges his assertion that his brain was too damaged to support any conscious experience
.Inconsistencies in Alexander's Story
Alexander's book omits vittal details, such as the fact that his coma was chemically induced and maintained by anesthetics. This omission is significant because it alters the narrative of his experience and its implications for consciousness
.Legal and Professional Issues
Alexander has a history of malpractice lawsuits, with several settled in the last ten years. One of these cases involved allegations that he falsified medical records to cover up a surgical error. This history raises questions about his credibility and potential motives for fabricating or exaggerating his NDE
.Financial Motives
Alexander has financially benefited significantly from his NDE story, including selling webinars, books, and memberships to an organization he co-founded. This financial gain could be seen as a motive to embellish or fabricate his experience
.Response to Criticism
Despite the criticisms, Alexander has maintained that he stands by every word in his book. However, he has not adequately addressed the discrepancies medical professionals and investigative journalists pointed out.
.Given these points, it appears that there is substantial evidence to question the authenticity and accuracy of Dr. Eben Alexander's account of his near-death experience. While he remains steadfast in his claims, the medical community and investigative reports have raised significant doubts about his story.
Ok, it was bacterial meningitis ... I always get that confused with viral encephalitis ... LOL.
Anyway .... You just posted a boatload of allegations WITH NO EVIDENCE.
You provided one name: Dr. Laura Potter. Who the f**k is she and has SHE profited financially from her story?
If a coma is induced medically, would that not be on the record? Where is that record? If there is no such record, it is a "he said - she said" situation and I think the statement of a neurosurgeon must be considered above the statement of an ER physician who we know nothing about. Maybe she's a single mom with a heroin addiction ... just to be melodramatic LOL.
Malpractice suits: HOW MANY? You say 1 of them involves a falsified record ... WHAT IS KNOWN ABOUT THIS? You can't just post this shit and not have evidence. If the suits were settled and no information can be released, then you have NOTHING. The suit may have been settled without Dr. Alexander admitting any guilt, therefore he is innocent.
Dr. Alexanders "financial benefits" from his NDE story: PLEASE ELABORATE. HOW MUCH? HOW MUCH RELATIVE TO HIS EARNINGS AS A NEUROSURGEON? Probably a pittance, but you bring it up anyway because it adds to your denial story. I very much doubt he needed or cares about any tiny financial benefits from his story. I have heard from many NDE book authors saying they LOSE MONEY at publishing their stories. They don't care about that. They experienced something you can only hope to experience.
Come on, Sid, you are so great at making allegations, so PISSPOOR at supporting them.
I think we need to consider a very basic question, related to your claims of Dr. Alexander's financial benefits from his story....
What would it profit a world-reknowned brain neurosurgeon who was an atheist and believed as a brain specialist that no consciousness can exist outside of a working brain .... to invent a story of going during a coma (medically-induced or not) to another dimension, another reality, where love is overwhelming and physics is totally different from this world, and where he had full consciousness despite not having a working brain?
Why would he do it if it wasn't absolutely true?
Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Saturday, 19th October, 2024, 04:30 AM.
Here are some revisions to my attempt to compile this theology (I have tried to stick close to my initial compilation, but have also used some of your comments verbatim):
New # 3
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that S/He/It offers each soul the opportunity to go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse). Each soul can decide for itself. Most souls jump at the chance, because they know they will survive no matter how much suffering they go through, and the suffering advances their spiritual understanding. S/he will eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.
[Original that has been now revised:
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.]
New # 6
6. To have suffering occur, some souls choose to practice evil in their lives as part of their individual physical life plan (It is not the Creator who fixes an individual's life plan). These souls are choosing to live evilly to create an environment to the benefit of all souls who incarnate. There is no blame on them for their choice.
[Original that has been now revised:
6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).]
New # 8 & # 9
# 8. The above knowledge is a result of the reports of souls experiencing near death experiences and returning and sharing their observations/experiences on the other side.
# 9. There is no 'soul plan" church or movement. There doesn't need to be. No one needs to be "converted". One simply accepts the testimony of “returned” souls, or not.
Does this now capture all the elements of your theology?
I believe for each of us to develop our own Spirituality, we should consider other theological systems, and we should "get right" all the actual elements, from the adherents' point of view, even if this takes some time and discussion beforehand. So it is important to me to attempt to get the approval of some adherents to a compilation that is accurate, for that time.
To this end, I am assembling similarly worded compilations of a number of theologies, so that they may be somewhat more easily compared.
Bob A (Theist)
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Saturday, 19th October, 2024, 05:44 AM.
I am trying to sort out what I would call your "Atheism" (Correct me if I am mislabelling your belief system) from your post # 193 above (24/10/17):
Atheism
The existing mass and energy itself of the multi-verse has always existed in some form or the other (There is no God/Creator).
2. There are no immaterial Spirits/Souls (Based on the findings of science).
3. If there were a Creator, for S/He/It to have created immaterial souls to offer these souls suffering in a material world for their own spiritual advancement (The Soul Plan/Suffering Theology), would be cruel. But both are false.
4. This alleged Creator postulated by The Soul Plan/Suffering Theology has created "chaos" since the elements are:
a. Suffering by material disintegration;
b. Suffering in needing certain elements to sustain life;
c. Suffering by needing to provide ourselves that which meets Maslow's basic needs;
d. Suffering by having “wants” beyond basic needs, which we try to acquire.
e. Suffering due to certain individuals in society pursuing lives of pure evil.
5. Death is the simple end of life and needs. There is no evolution to some “Spiritual Realm”.
[Compiled from comments on ChessTalk by Dilip Panjwani (24/10/17); formal approval by Dilip is pending.]
Let me know where I may have gotten it wrong.....I've inserted a few elements that seem to me required to make your system seamless, but have used some of your words verbatim.
I'd be interested in what other CT'ers think of this as a "Life Explanation"!
That is what NDE is: a boatload WITH NO EVIDENCE of any 'life after death'...
...just a mixture of hallucinations in a severely ill brain, along with a lot of lying...
That is your opinion only. All religious / spiritual beliefs require faith, because we can't prove anything, BUT the NDEs are the closest thing we have to proof because tens of thousands of people have them ... and in many cases, a "dead" person who comes back can relate to everyone in the ER what they were doing and even saying during the time the revived person had no brain activity. This has happened too many times to count, and ER doctors and nurses are witness to it and are left amazed by it.
5. Death is the simple end of life and needs. There is no evolution after that...
Bob A
Hey Bob,
There is the possibility of the scientific phenomenon of 'entanglement' leading to life after death, though this is only a scientific hypothesis, without any proof as yet...
Here are some revisions to my attempt to compile this theology (I have tried to stick close to my initial compilation, but have also used some of your comments verbatim):
New # 3
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that S/He/It offers each soul the opportunity to go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse). Each soul can decide for itself. Most souls jump at the chance, because they know they will survive no matter how much suffering they go through, and the suffering advances their spiritual understanding. S/he will eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.
[Original that has been now revised:
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.]
New # 6
6. To have suffering occur, some souls choose to practice evil in their lives as part of their individual physical life plan (It is not the Creator who fixes an individual's life plan). These souls are choosing to live evilly to create an environment to the benefit of all souls who incarnate. There is no blame on them for their choice.
[Original that has been now revised:
6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).]
New # 8 & # 9
# 8. The above knowledge is a result of the reports of souls experiencing near death experiences and returning and sharing their observations/experiences on the other side.
# 9. There is no 'soul plan" church or movement. There doesn't need to be. No one needs to be "converted". One simply accepts the testimony of “returned” souls, or not.
Does this now capture all the elements of your theology?
I believe for each of us to develop our own Spirituality, we should consider other theological systems, and we should "get right" all the actual elements, from the adherents' point of view, even if this takes some time and discussion beforehand. So it is important to me to attempt to get the approval of some adherents to a compilation that is accurate, for that time.
To this end, I am assembling similarly worded compilations of a number of theologies, so that they may be somewhat more easily compared.
Bob A (Theist)
Nice idea, Bob, to try and capture all this information. I appreciate your efforts.
Just a small correction with point 6 ... because we are not talking about just anyone with this point, but we are talking about the Hitlers, Stalins, the Pol Pots of history.
so here's how I would amend point 6:
New # 6
6. To maximize suffering on Earth during certain time periods, some advanced souls with many lifetimes experience (reincarnation) will choose to incarnate again for the purpose of introducing new levels of evil to the world as part of their individual physical life plan (It is not the Creator who fixes an individual's life plan). This is for the benefit of all souls who incarnate during this time period and wish to advance quickly spiritually by enduring extreme suffering on Earth. Despite our human wish to judge these incarnations, there is no judgment on the other side against these advanced souls for their volunteering to introduce the new evils to planet Earth. Examples would be the incarnations known as Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghenkis Khan, and many others.
Also Bob, if you want to really understand Near Death Experiences, this video of an interview with Dr. Jeffrey Long who has personally studied over 4000 accounts is a great insight to the topic:
Dr. Long has even studied children's NDEs and come to a surprising conclusion ... and he has information about cultural influences as well; even aboriginal NDEs he has studied.
Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Monday, 21st October, 2024, 04:18 AM.
I am trying to sort out what I would call your "Atheism" (Correct me if I am mislabelling your belief system) from your post # 193 above (24/10/17):
Atheism
The existing mass and energy itself of the multi-verse has always existed in some form or the other (There is no God/Creator).
2. There are no immaterial Spirits/Souls (Based on the findings of science).
3. If there were a Creator, for S/He/It to have created immaterial souls to offer these souls suffering in a material world for their own spiritual advancement (The Soul Plan/Suffering Theology), would be cruel. But both are false.
4. This alleged Creator postulated by The Soul Plan/Suffering Theology has created "chaos" since the elements are:
a. Suffering by material disintegration;
b. Suffering in needing certain elements to sustain life;
c. Suffering by needing to provide ourselves that which meets Maslow's basic needs;
d. Suffering by having “wants” beyond basic needs, which we try to acquire.
e. Suffering due to certain individuals in society pursuing lives of pure evil.
5. Death is the simple end of life and needs. There is no evolution to some “Spiritual Realm”.
[Compiled from comments on ChessTalk by Dilip Panjwani (24/10/17); formal approval by Dilip is pending.]
Let me know where I may have gotten it wrong.....I've inserted a few elements that seem to me required to make your system seamless, but have used some of your words verbatim.
I'd be interested in what other CT'ers think of this as a "Life Explanation"!
Bob A
I have to respond to this because you are referring to Dilip's comments about the Soul Plan theology, if we can call it a theology.
re: "3. If there were a Creator, for S/He/It to have created immaterial souls to offer these souls suffering in a material world for their own spiritual advancement (The Soul Plan/Suffering Theology), would be cruel."
This is the opinion of someone who does not understand. First, the Creator does not ORDER anyone to suffer on Earth.
But far more important, the suffering is necessary for advancement in the spiritual realm and all the souls in that realm KNOW AND REALIZE THIS. That is why so many -- over 8 billion now -- have chosen to come here and suffer.
It would be like saying that choosing 4 years of University -- having to juggle classes with part-time work and having to study hard and write exams -- is subjecting ourselves to cruelty. Most who choose to go to University do so with a sense of excitement, not a foreboding of cruel treatmen, although we anticipate it will be difficult going.
This also addresses point 4. The suffering is something we must endure to understand and advance ... and our Creator is generous, providing Earth with many ingredients to make our task easier ... ingredients like music, art, literature, social life ... things we can use to better handle the suffering.
Dilip is not capable of this kind of understanding. He is going through life with blinders on. But ... this is ok. It is his chosen path and he is at a different level than anyone else, we are all at different levels and no one is better or worse than another. For some reason, I feel it necessary to respond to his simplistic and unworkable notions of political Libertarianism; we must have pre-arranged this back and forth on the other side while planning our incarnations.
Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Monday, 21st October, 2024, 05:00 AM.
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