Life - How Should It Be Viewed?

[Dilip Panjwani]

Human "Free Will"

Source: I believe that one source of the "free will" concept comes from "Religion/Spirituality". That is because all Religions believe that humans are "moral" animals. Thus they CAN choose between "good" and "evil" (Such choice is not pre-determined, despite some modern science views). So man/woman is "responsible" for their judgments and actions. The Supra-Natural, the Creator, puts a condition on a human coming into being - they are to do "the good" and avoid doing "evil/The bad". Modern Determinism replaces this with humans are not allowed to do "damage" (Even though it is not their "choice"; they are pre-determined). Society to function cannot have humans running amok causing "damage".

Question: Why is it that many atheists hold that man is an "ethical" animal (The secular equivalent of religious/spiritual "morality")? They argue that man is responsible and has free will just from the fundamental elements that make up "Human Nature"! Do any CT'ers hold this position......if so, can you elaborate on how you deal with "modern science determinism"?

Bob A (Theist Community)

What the theist calls the 'soul', the scientist calls 'consciousness' ... the rest is only deterministic sophisticated machinery !!

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Dilip:

I agree that "Consciousness" and "alive" seem intimately intertwined. Pargat has gone down a particular aspect of consciousness in his attempted definition: "Self-aware".

I have always considered "alive", that which is "independently" conscious. So a DNA strand is not "alive", but a constituent building block of that which can be alive. The complete being, the butterfly, is therefore "alive". But then, one can say the butterfly is "dependent" - needs air, water, food, etc to continue to be alive. But somehow I am not inclined to like this counter much.

But I have problems with Pargat's approach. I desperately want to believe that a tree is both alive, and has a unique non-material partner Spirit joined to it. But I don't think a tree is self-aware (Except in Lord of the Rings).

I guess I am still in quest of being "enlightened"!

Bob A (What do I know about what is going on in the Multi-verse)

Hey Bob, I didn't write anything at all about trees having spirits or being self-aware. Trees / plants do not appear to conduct or to be able to conduct examinations of the life process, therefore my definition does not consider them as alive.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

Sorry about being a bit unclear......

I was aware that you did not include in your system, Spirits or trees; I was trying to say that I want to include both, but am not sure how I can do it. Your system seems, on what we know about trees so far, to exclude them from being designated "alive"; agreed re your system.

It is problematic to me that your definition excludes so much that heretofore we've just generally accepted as being "alive", like us. Maybe you are right........But if you are, it leaves me with an uneasy feeling about our new schema......

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Pargat:

Sorry about being a bit unclear......

I was aware that you did not include in your system, Spirits or trees; I was trying to say that I want to include both, but am not sure how I can do it. Your system seems, on what we know about trees so far, to exclude them from being designated "alive"; agreed re your system.

It is problematic to me that your definition excludes so much that heretofore we've just generally accepted as being "alive", like us. Maybe you are right........But if you are, it leaves me with an uneasy feeling about our new schema......

Bob A

Ok, now I get what you meant. But there is a problem: trees act only like machines. If we could emulate the photosynthesis process, we can make artificial trees that act just as natural trees. We could replace roots in the soil with electrical wires and cables.

"Alive" must mean something that machines CANNOT emulate. Otherwise we'd have to call all machines "alive" and protect them as much as we do humans.

So far at least, despite the current over-indulgence with the term "artificial intelligene", AFAIK there is no machine created by man that is self-aware and is capable of examining its own process of existing. AFAIK there is still no HAL computer.

[Pargat Perrer]

Soul Plan Theology Part 1

.......

Soul Plan Theology Part 2


Ok, now to answer as best I can figure why God would have created a physical universe and made sure to allow an alive species that He would gift with spirit.

In almost all Near Death Experience (NDE) accounts, the person says he or she had a "life review" on the other side, after meeting some of their already-deceased relatives and friends. But a small subset of them are returned to Earthly life without this life review occurring.

In this life review, each and every moment of their Earthly life is replayed to them, and they not only re-experience their own feelings and emotions, but they ALSO experience the feelings and emotions of EVERYONE they affected. In Christian doctrine, humans are judged by God, but in Soul Plan theology, God has us judge ourselves by being put through this life review. All NDErs who have the life review say they experience intense shame and guilt over how they treated others. But God forgives all. Our punishment, for those who demand that there must be judgment, is this very intense feeling of shame and guilt. We are in the presence of God, of pure love, and we are exposed naked to his eyes with all our human faults. Even Sid will feel this.

Many NDErs actually say they are hooked up to a machine to have this review done. Now think about that ... it means our souls contain every memory we accumulate in our lives, and contain the feelings and emotions of others we affect. In the latter case, how did the soul get that information? We did not experience others' feelings and emotions during our Earthly life!

And just think about this in standard computer terms. Think about how many petabytes of information this must entail ... all stored in our soul, not in our brain! It is truly supernatural.

This to me is a clue why God created us and put us in a physical universe in which we have to fight to survive. It is because God Himself cannot directly experience this, and yet He MUST experience it all in order to be an infinitely knowledgeable God. The story of Jesus is interesting in the respect that God made Himself human in order to experience our trials and tribulations, according to Christian doctrine. But Jesus only lived one life. That's a very tiny data sample! Not only that, but Jesus was supposedly sin-free. So he didn't REALLY get to know what it is like to be us, i.e. sinners. (This is one reason why I questioned Christianity after initially accepting it in my teenage years -- that plus the notion that there is only 1 life for each soul, and it's whatever life God decides to throw us into. Very unfair, so much so that i cannot accept it.)

On the other side, there is a facility called the Hall of Records. It contains every second of every Earthly life ever lived, in full 3D detail, with all data regarding feelings and emotions included. According to NDErs who have seen this facility, it appears to go on into infinity. It probably contains the records of all other alive species as well through the Universe. And there is the possibility of parallel universes. Yes, true infinity awaits us! I would love to work as a Librarian in that facility! LOL

So we exist to be God's data gatherers, so that He can truly know and understand what it means to be without His own powers. This is why our souls gather all this information. And there are untold gazillions of souls on other planets throughout the Universe doing the same thing. It is intentional in the design of the Universe that all civilizations should be seperated by vast distances and unable to communicate directly with each other. Whether this will eventually be overcome is left unanswered.

Next post will deal with why our souls incarnate.

[Neil Frarey]

Soul Plan Theology Part 2


God ... put us in a physical universe in which we have to fight to survive.

Nope.

No fight needed to survive. Sorries.

Living was created easy, Pargat ... until Adam sinned.

Soul Plan Theology Part 2

It is because God Himself cannot directly experience this, and yet He MUST experience it all in order to be an infinitely knowledgeable God.

Nope.

In fact, Pargat ... He already knows all of our experiences. He knows what we are going to ask even before we ask!

Soul Plan Theology Part 2

... but Jesus was supposedly sin-free. So he didn't REALLY get to know what it is like to be us, i.e. sinners. (This is one reason why I questioned Christianity after initially accepting it in my teenage years -- that plus the notion that there is only 1 life for each soul, and it's whatever life God decides to throw us into. Very unfair, so much so that i cannot accept it.)

God knew full well of satan, and of evil, and of demons too. God knows all about sin, Pargat. So for each and everyone one of us our sins are already known.

That is why He is willing to forgive us our sins. He knows our mankind experience. He knows us before we sinned.

And then, when mankind did sin ... sigh. And, the sufferings of our sin too ... He knows our sins.

No need to walk in your shoes, Pargat. Your sins are already known.

It is up to you ... what you need to do all about that, ha!

...

We only get one life to live, Pargat ... sorries. And even better ... there's no 'take backs' or 'undos'.

Each life unique ... precious.





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[Bob Armstrong]

Artificial Intelligence (AI) & "Alive"

The day will come (It is almost here already) when AI in human body will be intelligent, affective, emotive, social and "independent".

They will have to be considered "alive".

Meet Sophia, the first AI to have been granted full national citizenship (In Saudi Arabia), and granted all human rights, including protection by law (Note also that courts have given some mammals limited "legal rights" in some countries [Dolphins]):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Ox6H64yu8

Bob A (Also believes extra-terrestrials, under cover of appearing human, already live in hidden societies, among us)

[Pargat Perrer]

Artificial Intelligence (AI) & "Alive"

The day will come (It is almost here already) when AI in human body will be intelligent, affective, emotive, social and "independent".

They will have to be considered "alive".

Meet Sophia, the first AI to have been granted full national citizenship (In Saudi Arabia), and granted all human rights, including protection by law (Note also that courts have given some mammals limited "legal rights" in some countries [Dolphins]):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Ox6H64yu8

Bob A (Also believes extra-terrestrials, under cover of appearing human, already live in hidden societies, among us)

Interesting Question: could Sophia enter FIDE women's chess tournaments? Why or why not?


Ok, I have to slightly modify my definition of alive to handle robots.

New definition of Life:

"Life is the only process in which the participants in the process are capable of doing , and sometimes do, examinations of the process, without any external programming, directions or control."

AI is nowhere close to being emotive nor independent (Saudi Arabia is engaging in a publicity stunt only.) Any "emotion" that appears to be expressed by any robot is purely programmed logic.

If you went to strike Sophia, I doubt very much it would do anything at all to prevent being struck. Of course it COULD be programmed to take evasive measures, but again, that is in its programming logic, created externally. If all humans perished and Sophia was on its own, the programming would have to have Sophia seek out power sources to keep itself going. Maybe there could be enough programming to recognize a power cord and plug itself in, but if there were no electricity, the programming would have to include how to first GENERATE electricity and then attach itself to the electricity, making sure the voltages / currents are matching what it needs. Then the programming would have to account for what to do once the internal battery wears down.

And the whole time that Sophia is powered up and there are no humans, it would not "think" for itself.

The best authority on robots is the late scientist and author Isaac Asimov. His 4 Laws of Robotics are (note that they start with 0, because initially he only had Laws 1, 2 and 3 and later realized a new one that took precedence over all others was needed):

0. A robot may not harm humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except where
such orders would conflict with the Zeroth Law.
2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the Zeroth or First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the Zeroth or First or Second Law.

Note that humanity is given priority over individual human beings.

[Pargat Perrer]

Soul Plan Theology Part 2

....

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Soul Plan Theology Part 3


According to the Soul Plan, we are not ordered by God to incarnate on Earth. We are given free will to decide if and when we want to do so. Almost all souls want to do so, because when you are a soul in Heaven, you know you are immortal and will survive all traumas that Earth can deliver. Not only survive, but you will develop and improve spiritually. There are something like 7 levels of Heaven, and every soul wants to be on the highest level, with God. To rise up in levels, you need to incarnate on Earth and learn lessons.

I think of it this way: you are told that if you get a needle injection, you will experience total bliss forever. For a few seconds, you feel the prick of the needle ... ouch! But after that comes eternal bliss. That is how easy the decision is for souls to incarnate on Earth. Life on Earth is the prick of the needle.

Every incarnation requires planning. This planning is done with every soul with whom you will interact, even on the most trivial level. This is why we experience deja vu ... we briefly "remember" the planning phase we did in Heaven. Deja vu only lasts a few seconds, because we are not meant to remember. We need to live our Earthly lives knowing nothing for sure (scientifically) about our true nature.

Thinking of it from an Earthly computational aspect, each incarnation planning would need to take years and require even beyond petabytes of information. In Heaven, this is no problem at all, from both a time and data perspective. There is a vetting process, in which "elders" go over each Soul Plan and offer suggestions for improvement.

The worst outcome of a Soul Plan is suicide. It happens, and it indicates that a Soul Plan was too ambitious, the soul thought it could handle more than it could in actuality. So it does happen, and each suicide requires a "restart" of the entire planning process for that soul if it wants to still learn the lessons it failed to completely learn.

It is only in this day and age that we are now being exposed on Earth to the Soul Plan knowledge, which seems to indicate that maybe for Earth, we have reached the limit of what we can do and the incarnations will soon stop. Or it could mean that even though it will go on for quite some time yet, we are being "allowed" this information at this time because otherwise the stress of Earthly life would completely overwhelm too many of us.

This is the last installment from me on this theology. I will not respond to criticism, so Neil you can withhold your "sorries". You are all entitled to your opinions in spiritual matters. I happen to know that it doesn't matter at all what anyone believes. We will all have our life reviews at the end of our Earthly life and we will all decide to either reincarnate or not. There is no Hell besides Earth, and we still want to come to Earth to advance spiritually.

If you are at all interested in this theology, I recommend the Youtube channel called "Next Level Soul". Here is a link that can get you started on it, and it has a Canadian psychic medium in this particular video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPGtPTk5ZSM

And for those who think that these mediums are all just trying to make money from books, listen to the video starting at about 20:20 and going for about a couple of minutes ... "can't even pay for my groceries".

[Bob Armstrong]

Pargat:

PP: "Interesting Question: could Sophia enter FIDE women's chess tournaments? Why or why not?"

BA: Interesting bit of trivia - the first time CFC allowed a chess program to play in a CFC rated official tournament, its opponent was my very good friend, and former CFC President, and Canada's long-time FIDE representative, Phil Haley.

Phil won as I recollect.

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Pargat's Soul Plan Theology

Pt. I - Post # 71 (24/3/22)
Pt. II - Post # 80 (24/3/23)
Pt. III - Post # 84 (24/3/26)

I have been aware of a theology that has arisen out of the anecdotal recounting of near-death experiences. My own background is Christian Catholic Thomistic (Initially) Theology.... Later the priest/theologian/scientist Teilhard de Chardin.

I will go slowly through your texts, and check out the link.

Thanks for the clear presentation.

Interesting path for our discussion on "Life".......

Bob A (Theist Community)

P.S. When I originated this thread, I hoped for both Religious/Spiritual contribution, as well as Atheistic Humanitarian Ethics. I would like to reaffirm that this thread is not being hijacked by the Spiritualists.......just part of the possibly wider discussion here.

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Dilip:

I agree that "Consciousness" and "alive" seem intimately intertwined. Pargat has gone down a particular aspect of consciousness in his attempted definition: "Self-aware".
,,,,,,

I think it is more than being self-aware. It is also about imagination.

So far AFAIK man has not built any AI capable of imagination. The Sophia robot ... does it spend any time at all thinking of new ideas? New inventions?

We hear so much about Artificial Intelligence (AI), that it is going to take over the world. But AI really only does what WE tell it to do via programming. And I don't see any evidence of that changing.

AI machines do not go hunting for data unless WE program it to do so. Only humans show the imagination to go hunting for data on their own and doing NEW things with that data.

But .... if indeed there is a God that created humans .... it could be fairly asked, are we humans merely God's AI? Did God program us to do the things we do, including our self-examinations? Even our philosophizing?

If yes, it could be argued that even WE are not alive. I recently amended my definition of life to:

"Life is the only process in which the participants in the process are capable of doing , and sometimes do, examinations of the process, without any external programming, directions or control."

By this new definition, we humans are not alive if God programmed us.

On the other hand, if God merely provided us the CAPABILITY to imagine and to self-examine, and we did the imagining and the self-examination on our OWN impetus, then we are alive.

So the question about life at least as applied to humans seems to boil down to ... what MAKES US do the imaginative things we do, and what MAKES US examine the life process?

This requires more knowledge ... about DNA specifically, I believe. Could DNA really be the means that God has used to program us?

And a second question is: could we create a machine with just the CAPABILITY of imagination, of self-examination, and NOT program it to do that, and if yes, would it ever do that?

In terms of typical digital computing ... no, we can't ever give it that capability. But what about quantum computing? I don't know enough about that to give an answer. Can we create a quantum computer that would be capable of imagination / self-examination ON ITS OWN IMPETUS -- NOT PROGRAMMED BY US TO IMAGINE OR SELF-EXAMINE?

[Bob Armstrong]

Sycamore

Google's Quantum Computer

The Next Generation

Search: YouTube (Too long to post here)

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

Sycamore

Google's Quantum Computer

The Next Generation

Search: YouTube (Too long to post here)

Bob A

Hi Bob,
The human brain's capacity to 'imagine', 'reflect' and 'humour' arise because of its ability to make novel connections (apparently random, which means its pre-determinism has not been explained well so far) within its constituent circuits, which computers with artificial intelligence may also have (I am not a computer expert to know for sure... maybe Sid or some computer expert can help us here), but it is an ability which quantum computers are more likely to have, given their properties of superposition and entanglement...
Thus, except for consciousness, everything else, including imagination, reflection and humor, is only complex machinery; consciousness itself also is linked to that machinery, but has additional properties of self-awareness and non-interference with the rest of the complex machinery!!

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

Agreed: Consciousness is a result of brain activity, and has the capacity to generate imagination, reflection, self-awareness, humour and ethics (Non-interference in anti-social ways).

However, a person can act against such internal instinct; this ability to go against a logical path (The Conscious constituent of the brain) is due to the Subconscious constituent of the brain.

Although we can estimate what a person will do when faced with certain life choices, based on track record, and a general personality profile, this is not "determinism of a machine". The reason is that in fact the decision is random/unpredictable........we often see a person go against everything they "should be expected" to do; a person with an anti-society profile, can, very unexpectedly, out of nowhere, do an altruistic, self-sacrificing act when such could never have been predicted. This is the proof that humans have "Free Will".

With the technologies of artificial intelligence advancing so quickly, and being, or capable of being, programmed emotively and affectively, and with the technology of neural networking and quantum mechanics, there will come a day, when man will create a new and equal species......"artificial intelligences". It will have a totally independent life of its own, and will have to be recognized as such, and having all rights of humans.

Bob A (Optimist for some parts of the future & Free Will'er)