Life - How Should It Be Viewed?

[Neil Frarey]

Since when was exploring how nature works inconsistent with having a belief in God?

Explore all you like, Sid. I do the same! Every moment of every day. Believe me .. I do.

But at the end of the day ... we are blessed to be.

[Sid Belzberg]

You know what's most revealing with this bullsh*t thread???

When any of you are hard pressed up against a life threating crisis ... you will reach for God.

Each and every single one of you.

1. We are blessed to be.

...

Since when was exploring how nature works inconsistent with having a belief in God?

[Neil Frarey]

You know what's most revealing with this bullsh*t thread???

When any of you are hard pressed up against a life threating crisis ... you will reach for God.

Each and every single one of you.

1. We are blessed to be.

...

[Dilip Panjwani]

Let me take a shot at Dilip/Sid's Deterministic View of Life

1. The body, having what has been termed in the past as "Consciousness", is merely a DNA/Hormonal "machine".

2. It has a data base from which it draws information in making what appears to be a "choice".

3. In every identical choice situation, the same data will be drawn on, and the same "choice" made.

4. So the data used is the "cause"; the alleged "choice" is the necessary effect.

5. Thus human actions are always "determined". It is simple "Cause/Effect". There is no "choice", there is no arbitrary intervention in the process of what was previously known as "free will".

Is this simplification accurate enough?

If so, I'll try to make some intelligent response as someone who believes in "Consciousness/Free Will".

Bob A

When you say: what has been termed in the past as "Consciousness", what do you mean?

[Sid Belzberg]

Let me take a shot at Dilip/Sid's Deterministic View of Life

1. The body, having what has been termed in the past as "Consciousness", is merely a DNA/Hormonal "machine".

2. It has a data base from which it draws information in making what appears to be a "choice".

3. In every identical choice situation, the same data will be drawn on, and the same "choice" made.

4. So the data used is the "cause"; the alleged "choice" is the necessary effect.

5. Thus human actions are always "determined". It is simple "Cause/Effect". There is no "choice", there is no arbitrary intervention in the process of what was previously known as "free will".

Is this simplification accurate enough?

If so, I'll try to make some intelligent response as someone who believes in "Consciousness/Free Will".

Bob A

Let me take a shot at Dilip/Sid's Deterministic View of Life

I don't have that view at all. I mentioned that one of the explanations of entangled particles correlating with each other instantaneously, no
matter how far apart they are, is that they are not communicating with each other at all; they were preprogrammed to behave that way. Preprograming
at a subatomic level implies determinism, which I rejected, hence the alternative model I presented.
The rest of what you post regarding consciousness, etc, is nothing I have ever touched upon.

[Bob Armstrong]

Let me take a shot at Dilip/Sid's Deterministic View of Life

1. The body, having what has been termed in the past as "Consciousness", is merely a DNA/Hormonal "machine".

2. It has a data base from which it draws information in making what appears to be a "choice".

3. In every identical choice situation, the same data will be drawn on, and the same "choice" made.

4. So the data used is the "cause"; the alleged "choice" is the necessary effect.

5. Thus human actions are always "determined". It is simple "Cause/Effect". There is no "choice", there is no arbitrary intervention in the process of what was previously known as "free will".

Is this simplification accurate enough?

If so, I'll try to make some intelligent response as someone who believes in "Consciousness/Free Will".

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Neil:

Another form of the Theist Community core belief # 1 (Post # 1):1. We are blessed to be, rather than not.

Bob A

[Neil Frarey]

Life - How Should It Be Viewed?

1. We are blessed to be.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Diliip,
i find your comments on determinism and science to be very interesting. Imagine two coins flipped simultaneously. Even if separated by a vast distance, if they always land with matching sides (both heads or both tails), you'd suspect some hidden connection between them. This is analogous to entanglement in the quantum world. Entangled particles exhibit a bizarre correlation – measuring one instantly determines the state of its distant partner, seemingly defying notions of distance and time.

To explain this weirdness, pilot wave theory proposes that particles are guided by an invisible wave carrying "hidden variables" – instructions that predetermine their behavior. Imagine the coins having tiny markings only visible under a special light. Those markings would dictate how they land, removing true randomness from the outcome.

The problem is that entanglement suggests these hidden instructions change instantly across distances, coordinating the entangled particles' behavior. This leads to a potentially troubling idea called superdeterminism. If everything is preprogrammed from the universe's beginning by hidden variables, it implies our choices aren't truly free. Imagine not just the coins, but our own decisions about how to measure the particles were predetermined. This challenges our intuitive understanding of cause and effect.

The alternative to the pilot wave theory, the "standard model", does not even address this idea that when one entangled particle is observed, even if the other particle is lightyears away, it instantaneously does the exact opposite of the observed particle, seemingly at speeds faster than light violating the special theory that imposes a cosmic speed limit of the speed of light. It does not explain how this is possible; it simply acknowledges this strange fact without explanation.

My partner in life, science, and business developed an interesting physics hypothesis while skipping stones across a pond at the famous Mount Royal in Montreal. Together, we worked on writing it up formally as well as an experiment to validate the hypothesis physically.

In quantum physics, entangled particles exhibit a seemingly impossible connection – changes to one particle can instantaneously affect its partner, even across vast distances. This phenomenon appears to violate Einstein's theory of relativity, which posits the speed of light as the cosmic speed limit. We propose a new model and experimental validation, introducing hidden wave structures and the disruptive influence of decoherence to explain this strange behavior while adhering to relativistic constraints.


A Nested Wave Model for Quantum Non-locality: Reconciling with Special Relativity
By Sidney H Belzberg and Alicia Belzberg

Abstract
We propose a nested wave model to address this nonlocal behavior without abandoning the fundamental principles of relativity. Our model introduces a hidden wave structure (Wave 2) interacting with conventional wavefunctions (Wave 1). As entangled particles separate by significant distances, new nested wave structures emerge within Wave 2 to mediate seemingly non-local entanglement effects. Importantly, quantum decoherence, increasing with distance, could disrupt the coherence of the Wave 2 structures. Decoherence introduces increasing "noise" into the Wave 2 system, potentially causing a delay as the entanglement signal must overcome this disruption over increasing distances. Rather than hindering entanglement, this disruption offers a potential mechanism for explaining a minuscule delay in the observed non-locality.

Mathematically, we model this process with a modified Schrödinger equation containing nested terms whose interactions scale as a function of separation distance and entanglement severity ('η'). Additionally, we introduce an exponential decoherence term, dependent on distance ('d'), to account for the potential degradation of nested wave interactions. We include a theoretical limit informed by the speed of light as a critical threshold for generating new nested wave structures:

i∂Ψ(x,t) / ∂t = [−ℏ² / 2m ⋅ ∇² + V(x) + Σ{ki f(η, ai(d), c) Φi(x,t)} + β * e^(-kd) * Ψ(x,t)] Ψ(x,t)

Here, 'c' is a proxy for the speed-of-light limit in nested wave generation dynamics. Individual nested waves ('Φi') possess scale factors ('ai') exhibiting distance ('d') and entanglement dependency through 'f(η).' Notably, the inclusion of parameter 'c' directly reflects the model's focus on a nested wave system that respects relativistic constraints for each interacting level within Wave 2."
This model aims to provide a mathematically sound approach to understanding entanglement within the constraints of Special Relativity. This novel nested wave paradigm opens new avenues for investigating a model that explains non-locality within the context of respecting special relativity, hence offering a complete standard model.

We propose a lab-scale experiment to test this model. Entangled photons will be measured at two distances with high-precision atomic clocks, seeking a consistent but minuscule delay in correlation times at the further distance. If observed consistently, this infinitesimal delay supports our nested wave hypothesis. Conversely, the absence of a consistent subtle infinitesimal delay would corroborate the instantaneous action-at-a-distance interpretation of the Standard Model.

Hi Sid,
The hypothesis you and Alicia have generated is quite intriguing indeed!
The phenomenon of 'Entanglement' is very close to my heart, as it gives us hope of 'living on' after death. The determinants within our brains of the electromagnetic waves which have the property of consciousness, could very well be entangled as a unit elsewhere, and as you would know, when one of the entangled units becomes less cohesive (eventually dying), the cohesiveness of the other units becomes stronger! And for all you know, our entire bodies may have an entangled counterpart elsewhere...
Deepak Chopra and others, on the other hand, believe that our consciousness merges with the other conscious electromagnetism in the universe, amazingly enhancing what 'we' experience...
Most scientists and philosophers however subscribe to the view that death marks the end of our souls (our consciousness of 'me', our memories, our thoughts, our consciousness as a whole)
By the way, stay tuned for my upcoming book: "Anatomy of the soul"...

[Bob Armstrong]

thanks again Sid.......clear........but somewhat mind-boggling for some of us seniors.

[Sid Belzberg]

accidental repeat post deleted

[Sid Belzberg]

Classical physics gave us a clockwork universe – if you knew every tiny detail about a system and the rules governing it, you could predict its future with absolute certainty. Think of a billiard table: knowing the starting positions and how hard you hit the balls, you could calculate exactly where they'd end up.

But quantum physics, the realm of atoms and particles, throws a wrench in that machine. It turns out things can exist in fuzzy mixtures of possibilities, called superposition. An electron, for example, is a bit like a coin that's both heads and tails at the same time. It's only when you measure it that it "collapses" into one definite state.

This inherent randomness is mind-boggling. To make things weirder, "entangled" particles seem mysteriously connected. Even when far apart, measuring one instantly decides the fate of its partner, faster than any signal could travel. It's like those connected coins we discussed earlier!

Some scientists propose "hidden variables" to restore order. Imagine particles carry secret instructions dictating their behavior. If we only knew those instructions, the apparent randomness might disappear!

But here's the catch: For this to work, those instructions might have been set at the very beginning of the universe. This extreme view is called superdeterminism. It would mean everything, even our own thoughts and decisions, might be a cosmic script playing out, making "free will" an illusion.

Whether hidden variables exist and if superdeterminism is the price for getting rid of randomness are questions physicists and philosophers are still grappling with!

[Bob Armstrong]

Re Quantum Physics

I am still chewing on Syd's post.

But, prior to it, I had understood that the novelty of quantum physics was that it was introducing "randomness" where traditional physics was totally deterministic.

In other words, traditional physics said if you understand the "cause", then you can 100% predict the effect.

But quantum physics came along and said that the cause/effect link was sometimes open to "possible varied effects" and which effect would occur had become very difficult to calculate.......this was the new concept.

Is this a misunderstanding by me?

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

It seems to me, about determinism, that it may be true, if you have all the factors covered, that you can predict, with high likelihood, what a particular human being will do in a certain set of circumstances.

My issue is "with high likelihood". My life view is that "free will" is present, and gives a human being an option, though perhaps one with a low likelihood of choice. But free will allows us to go against our instincts and determinants. We are self-interested. Yet, on occasion, we will resist acting out of self-interest, and will act altruistically. And it may be very hard to predict such behaviour.

In real life, we do see this somewhat regularly........for example, in random acts of kindness.

this behaviour of humans seems to me to contest the theory that humans are 100% determined re behaviour.

Bob A (Human Free Will Advocate)

[Bob Armstrong]

I am quite unfamiliar with quantum physics.......very interesting and informative Syd.....thanks for taking the time.

Bob A