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Looks like the Trump team got pretty much everything they wanted. Grade A negotiating, it seems like to me.
grade A negotiating = an extortive public beat down?
EDIT: Plus, if you read Z's text carefully, he didn't give up anything. Ukraine wants a "lasting peace." How do they attain that goal when they're dealing with a vile pos like Putin/Russia? Ukraine's future safety from Russia is the crux of their postion. They look to the USA for help and instead they get Trump saying, in effect, in exchange for a lucrative natural resources deal we'll do nothing to help you reach your goal of long-term safety.
Last edited by Peter McKillop; Wednesday, 5th March, 2025, 09:06 AM.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
The people who want Ukraine to keep fighting seem like they won't be satisfied until almost every man in that country is dead. The US government recognized that giving them more money and arms to continue that process is madness.
It is ironic that when Trump won the first time, critics were "This guy is going to start WW III !"
Now it's "Why won't this guy start WW III ?"
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
The people who want Ukraine to keep fighting seem like they won't be satisfied until almost every man in that country is dead.
The people I'm thinking of want Russia to STOP fighting, to STOP their illegal and immoral invasion, to STOP killing.
The US government recognized that giving them more money and arms to continue that process is madness.
So the Trump gov't decided that the right thing to do would be to pull the rug out from under Ukraine and stab them in the back while making sure to extort a huge and no doubt highly lucrative natural resource extraction deal. Where do you think the red line should be, Tom? If you want to hand Putin Ukraine then what's next? Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland?
It is ironic that when Trump won the first time, critics were "This guy is going to start WW III !"
Now it's "Why won't this guy start WW III ?"
ten characters
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
The people who want Ukraine to keep fighting seem like they won't be satisfied until almost every man in that country is dead. The US government recognized that giving them more money and arms to continue that process is madness.
It is ironic that when Trump won the first time, critics were "This guy is going to start WW III !"
Now it's "Why won't this guy start WW III ?"
As I stated when the war started, Ukraine was facing a situation similar to what Cuba was facing a few decades ago: JFK had told Cuba he will destroy it, if it imports missiles from Russia. Both Cuba and Russia backed off to prevent a war. And now Russia told Ukraine it will be destroyed if it joins NATO with access to their missiles. Ukraine and NATO could also have backed off to prevent this war...
Russia has about 140M people. The rest of Europe has, what, 600M? Those countries will have to move some of the money they presently do on social programs to defense if they don't want to get invaded, assuming this is even in Putin's mind, which I doubt. I think the US is correct to stop being the policeman of the world. It is costly and unproductive.
Why should the US taxpayer pay for any of this? What good has come of any of this interference? Is Syria better? Iraq? Libya?
We in Canada are very fortunate that we share a border because there is no chance the US would let some country set up military bases right next to them. If we had to actually pay for our own defense (small population, huge borders) we would all be broke.
The armchair QBs who are fine with the continued fighting have no skin in the game. It is easy to be generous with other peoples' lives and money.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
As I stated when the war started, Ukraine was facing a situation similar to what Cuba was facing a few decades ago: JFK had told Cuba he will destroy it, if it imports missiles from Russia. Both Cuba and Russia backed off to prevent a war. And now Russia told Ukraine it will be destroyed if it joins NATO with access to their missiles. Ukraine and NATO could also have backed off to prevent this war...
I agree 100%, Dilip. Russia took Crimea concurrently with Yanukovych resigning and fleeing the country, so there may not have been much negotiation possible in that case. Apparently the Obama administration didn't deal effectively the problem. But then Trump had four years and, to the best of my recollection, did nothing to work towards a resolution of the tension.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
I agree 100%, Dilip. Russia took Crimea concurrently with Yanukovych resigning and fleeing the country, so there may not have been much negotiation possible in that case. Apparently the Obama administration didn't deal effectively the problem. But then Trump had four years and, to the best of my recollection, did nothing to work towards a resolution of the tension.
The tension persisted because Ukraine insisted it wanted to bring NATO right to Russia's doorstep...
Canadians must now consider the possibility that a Trump-led USA could invade Canada with armed troops n the near future.
He won't need to do that. If he stops doing trade with Canada, Canadians will make USA their 11th province, and both Trump and Canada will get what they want... and one step towards a worldwide "One World, One Nation'!
1. In society, there are benefits to smallness: Small Is Beautiful: A Study of Economics As If People Mattered is a collection of essays published in 1973 by German-born British economist E. F. Schumacher. Originally published: 1973 Wikipedia
2. Who has the power to control? - A 1-World Government will pass laws to enslave us all.
3. Societal Structure Evolution - The world needs to evolve from a collection of "Nations" to a collection of "Villages" (This is a similar concept, as far as I can discern, as Dilip's "Circles within circles" societal organization; at least the commonality is that a local unit is better at controlling its own societal structures, especially its politicians. And what village could afford to have thousands of nuclear warheads, and millions of military, to use to blackmail the rest of the planet??)
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