As a TD, what would you do?

[Hugh Brodie]

The French Chesstalk has a discussion going regarding the results of an Active tournament in Montreal this past weekend.

It was a 5-round, 1-day Swiss in two sections. In the Open section, a player had won his first two games, and then alerted the TD that he would not be able to play the last round and asked for a zero-point bye. Then the impossible happened - this player had a 4-0 score when he left, and no one caught up to him in the last round. He was awarded no prize money. (I think 1st place was $300)

Crosstable: http://www.echecsahuntsic.com/automnal-2013.php

The question arises: how does this differ from taking a zero-point bye in round 3 or 4 (or whatever rounds in which half-point byes are not permitted)? I recall something similar happening in a World Open (or similar US tournament), when the leader going into the last round received a zero-point bye (I think he requested it before round 1), and ended up winning the tournament. I believe he was awarded his prize money.

What would be your ruling here? Prize money or not?

[Kerry Liles]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

The French Chesstalk has a discussion going regarding the results of an Active tournament in Montreal this past weekend.

It was a 5-round, 1-day Swiss in two sections. In the Open section, a player had won his first two games, and then alerted the TD that he would not be able to play the last round and asked for a zero-point bye. Then the impossible happened - this player had a 4-0 score when he left, and no one caught up to him in the last round. He was awarded no prize money. (I think 1st place was $300)

Crosstable: http://www.echecsahuntsic.com/automnal-2013.php

The question arises: how does this differ from taking a zero-point bye in round 3 or 4 (or whatever rounds in which half-point byes are not permitted)? I recall something similar happening in a World Open (or similar US tournament), when the leader going into the last round received a zero-point bye (I think he requested it before round 1), and ended up winning the tournament. I believe he was awarded his prize money.

What would be your ruling here? Prize money or not?

Seems simple enough to me, especially since it was a zero point bye. Who won the tournament? That player gets 1st place prize.
(assuming there was no explicit statement in the tournament regulations about having to play all rounds to qualify etc). I don't
think any TD would allow 1/2 point byes in any but early rounds (1,2 of 5 rounds)

[Roger Patterson]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

The French Chesstalk has a discussion going regarding the results of an Active tournament in Montreal this past weekend.

It was a 5-round, 1-day Swiss in two sections. In the Open section, a player had won his first two games, and then alerted the TD that he would not be able to play the last round and asked for a zero-point bye. Then the impossible happened - this player had a 4-0 score when he left, and no one caught up to him in the last round. He was awarded no prize money. (I think 1st place was $300)

Crosstable: http://www.echecsahuntsic.com/automnal-2013.php

The question arises: how does this differ from taking a zero-point bye in round 3 or 4 (or whatever rounds in which half-point byes are not permitted)? I recall something similar happening in a World Open (or similar US tournament), when the leader going into the last round received a zero-point bye (I think he requested it before round 1), and ended up winning the tournament. I believe he was awarded his prize money.

What would be your ruling here? Prize money or not?

there are many people around who feel that not playing the last round is the same as withdrawing and they will refuse to award any prize that otherwise would have been given. For this reason, for our (Victoria Chess) tournaments, our official policy page (http://grandpacificopen.pbworks.com/...18009/Policies) specifies that 0 or half point byes in any round, including the last do not affect eligibility for prizes.

There is no consistency among people with this. It's one of those quasi-religious issues for some people. Personally, I am affronted by the player in your example not being awarded the prize but others cannot believe I would even consider giving him the prize.

[Bob Armstrong]

Withdrawal??

Hi Guys:

I think the precedent you are thinking of Kerry, was Hikaru Nakamura in some USA tournament. He had a conflict with a tournament in Europe starting, and asked for and received a 0-pt. bye, as I remember. And he did win first and get the prize.

But I can advise at Scarborough CC, the rule is that if a player cannot play the last round(s), he is deemed "withdrawing" in the round he can't play. And he is so shown on the cross-table. And the further rule is that one must play all rounds, to claim any placing.

Early on, SCC does grant 1/2 pt. byes where requested in advance.

Bob A

[Stephen Wright]

Re: Withdrawal??

I think the precedent you are thinking of Kerry, was Hikaru Nakamura in some USA tournament. He had a conflict with a tournament in Europe starting, and asked for and received a 0-pt. bye, as I remember. And he did win first and get the prize.

For "some USA tournament" read the 2009 World Open. And he actually received two half-point byes for the last two rounds:

2009 Standings

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Withdrawal??

For "some USA tournament" read the 2009 World Open. And he actually received two half-point byes for the last two rounds:

2009 Standings

Hi Steve:

Thanks for the correct details - you now have jogged my memory on that tournament. There was a lot of ink spilled in Canada & USA on that one, if I remember correctly. Don't know what the majority of USA players thought of the result. But Hikaru is pretty popular, and maybe many did not want to argue against him.

[Garland Best]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

I recall another discussion thread about this, either on this board or the CFC board. I recall some (IMO) tenuous arguements by (I think) Jonathan Berry about how giving a zero point bye to a player A could hypothetically harm the pairings/results for other players B and C who were in competiton. Can't track it down now.

Personally I agree that the guy won the prize money fair and square. He requested the bye long before the outcome was known. I might think differently if someone won 4 games, and THEN knowing first place was guaranteed tried to not play the last round.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

If I were TD I would award him the prize. I would award him the prize even if he asked for the bye before round four, but not if he asked for it before round five (or at least not offer him more than the least amount he would win if he had played and lost) since this might alter the pairings favourably.

For example: I am 4-0 followed by Kramnik and Carlsen on 3-1

I know that if I get paired with either I get creamed and the other guy is going to win because the only other guy on 3 is Mr. Patzer, so we split 1st-3rd in that likely scenario. But if the GMs play each other, maybe they draw and I get clear 1st. I shouldn't profit from not playing.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

…. a player had won his first two games, and then alerted the TD that he would not be able to play the last round and asked for a zero-point bye.

What would be your ruling here? Prize money or not?

Hugh, when he asked for a zero point bye, what did the TD say?
I guess if it was explained clearly to him that this would disqualified him for prize money, then no prize money.

But if I was TD, he gets the prize money.
It's also interesting to note that his 4 wins include the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishers.
The 5th place winner only won 1 game.
So they all split the prize money, and the real winner gets nothing. That's absurd.
The "prize winners" should carve out $300 from their ill gotten gains and share with the real winner.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

This situation reminds me of the Hamilton Club Championship in 2012.
After 7 rounds, Adam Cormier stood atop the cross table with 6.5, the closest players at 5 points. With one game to play, nobody could catch him.
Did we force Adam to return the next week to play a final meaningless game? No, that would have been silly.

This situation is similar enough.
The 4 wins should be considered sufficient for 1st prize. Anything else is just silly.

Of course, club championships should be only 4 rounds, but that's another story. :)

[Rene Preotu]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

The French Chesstalk has a discussion going regarding the results of an Active tournament in Montreal this past weekend.

It was a 5-round, 1-day Swiss in two sections. In the Open section, a player had won his first two games, and then alerted the TD that he would not be able to play the last round and asked for a zero-point bye. Then the impossible happened - this player had a 4-0 score when he left, and no one caught up to him in the last round. He was awarded no prize money. (I think 1st place was $300)

Crosstable: http://www.echecsahuntsic.com/automnal-2013.php

The question arises: how does this differ from taking a zero-point bye in round 3 or 4 (or whatever rounds in which half-point byes are not permitted)? I recall something similar happening in a World Open (or similar US tournament), when the leader going into the last round received a zero-point bye (I think he requested it before round 1), and ended up winning the tournament. I believe he was awarded his prize money.

What would be your ruling here? Prize money or not?

This is so wrong. Taking $300 from a 14 years kid. Look at the standings. Olivier-Kenta won at #2, #3 and #4. The 5th place (rated 1548) won $75 with 1 win and 3 byes.
Maybe we don't know the whole story and the TD told the players before the 1st round that they have to play all 5 rounds in order to win a prize.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

Maybe we don't know the whole story and the TD told the players before the 1st round that they have to play all 5 rounds in order to win a prize.

The result website has an explanation (auto translation with google)
"To understand the price league table below, be aware that a player who leaves one side FQE tournament before the end can not win a prize. The price would have had to win Olivier-K has been carried over his closest pursuers Jean Hébert (MI) and Rui Zhu Hong. "

Also clearly (as per translation) the Olivier is claimed a winner

"Olivier K-Chiku-Ratte wins Autumnal Ahuntsic
He played only four games out of five, but it was enough for the young master Chiku-Ratte to winning first place in the Open section alone, with a score of 4 points. He could not, unfortunately, remain to compete in the final round"

It looks that it was known in advance that he would forfeit the right to any monies too.

[Rene Preotu]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

The result website has an explanation (auto translation with google)
"To understand the price league table below, be aware that a player who leaves one side FQE tournament before the end can not win a prize. The price would have had to win Olivier-K has been carried over his closest pursuers Jean Hébert (MI) and Rui Zhu Hong. "

Also clearly (as per translation) the Olivier is claimed a winner

"Olivier K-Chiku-Ratte wins Autumnal Ahuntsic
He played only four games out of five, but it was enough for the young master Chiku-Ratte to winning first place in the Open section alone, with a score of 4 points. He could not, unfortunately, remain to compete in the final round"

It looks that it was known in advance that he would forfeit the right to any monies too.

Thank you. I only read the first sentence from the website and then looked at the standings. But still doesn't look good for the TD

[Brian Profit]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

Of course he should get the money. That is just sour grapes, trying to punish someone who is not playing all the games when others are. The reality is that the player didn't need 5 rounds to outscore the others. He only needed 4.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: As a TD, what would you do?

It looks that it was known in advance that he would forfeit the right to any monies too.

Okay, thanks Egis, that explains it. The TD clearly had no choice. The rules are the rules. His hands were tied. If he had awarded Olivier the $300 he would have had the others all over his ass.

I still think this rule is stupid.
I hope there is such an outcry that no organizer/TD ever imposes this rule again.
Zero point byes should be allowed (even in the last round) and should not disqualify you or be considered a withdrawal.

To be clear, I also believe in half point byes (except for final round), but with a limit.

Just my 2 bit coins!