Borislav Ivanov returns

[Gordon Ritchie]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Had that happened in Ontario and the player taken off his clothes because he felt intimidated, he might well wish to call the police.

He might also want to go after the organizers, the owner of the building and the sponsors. Also complain to the human rights.

I don't know the laws in Spain so maybe what they did there is standard under their laws.

Good luck. I doubt a competent lawyer would believe he had a case. The only rights impaired are those of his opponents.

[Nigel Hanrahan]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Good luck. I doubt a competent lawyer would believe he had a case. The only rights impaired are those of his opponents.

I still find it odd that the organizers at the recent event waited until later rounds before banning Ivanov. What about those who played him before he was ejected? Throwing the responsibility onto the players is, well, unfair.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

In another chess forum, the question was asked, “What is Ivanov’s strength in blindfold chess?”

Is the type of suspected cheating here possible in blindfold chess?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Had that happened in Ontario and the player taken off his clothes because he felt intimidated, he might well wish to call the police.

He might also want to go after the organizers, the owner of the building and the sponsors. Also complain to the human rights.

I don't know the laws in Spain so maybe what they did there is standard under their laws.

Well, there was a little thing called the Spanish Inquisition. But nobody's expecting that... :D

[Garland Best]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

You could always see if he weighs the same as a duck...

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

It beats me, Paul. With all the laws we have here, including anti-bullying, the man says a competent lawyer wouldn't think he has a case. It doesn't change my view and I'm not in the habit of blaming the victim.

In my years in chess organizing and directing, I can't recall ever vilifying a player. Not even for suspicion of cheating. This isn't Salem in the 1690's.

Players often push the envelope to see how far they can get with an arbiter. If an arbiter isn't careful he can lose control of his event.

[Miroslav Stefanovic]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

it all depends on the rules of the tournament. If this was clearly stipulated ahead of time then he accepted it. I would not let them search me, just like I wouldn't let supermarket security search me for suspected shoplifting. I'd ask for police. But if it was clearly written in the rules, then you just get kicked out..

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

it all depends on the rules of the tournament. If this was clearly stipulated ahead of time then he accepted it. I would not let them search me, just like I wouldn't let supermarket security search me for suspected shoplifting. I'd ask for police. But if it was clearly written in the rules, then you just get kicked out..

As this is not a criminal law case, the arbiter might go simply with an opposite to a presumption of innocence - guilty until proven innocent. The arbiter should not be a CSI person.
Borislav is suspected to have a working communication device and receiving advices. Both things are forbidden per FIDE rules. He already refused to show his shoes, and he got expelled from the tournament. This is the second time. Maybe information is less clear what and how that happened but he was not forced to anything against his will just to show that he had nothing to hide.

While was he allowed to play many rounds? Maybe nobody made a complain to an arbiter :/

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Peter Doggers of ChessVibes questioned Ivanov via Facebook Chat right after he was expelled in Round 6. Here are some of the questions and answers:

Apparently he was searched already after Round 4:

OK, I played the tournament Naval Moral de la Mata. After the fourth round the organizer asked to take off my shoes. I said OK. Before the sixth round they asked to take off all clothes. I asked why. They said because my opponent [asked]. So I took off my cloak but the organizers continued to push to take off my shirt and jeans. I said: "this is a chess tournament, not a striptease bar". My opponent told me that those are the rules of FIDE. I didn't know that the rules of FIDE require you to strip naked before the game. It is humiliating.

And then? They removed you from the tournament?

Yes. They gave me back the fee and gave me 50 euros for compensation. I could not defend myself.

I have to ask this question: how do you explain that your moves are very much the same as Houdini?

Watch my games carefully. This is not true.

It is said that a device with wires was found on your body and that is why they removed you from the tournament. Is this true? What was the device for?

Device???

Different people are saying you had electronics on your chest?

And how does it look?

I don't know, I was not there. That's why I ask you. You say it's not true?

These people are lying. Why did the organizer give back the fee of € 40 and gave me 50 euros compensation? Why not call to police?

So you say you did not have any electronics with you?

Of course. The organizer was just looking for a reason to evict me because my opponents subjected him under pressure.

Source: http://www.chessvibes.com/borislav-i...o-being-banned

++++++++++
And comments by ChessVibes posters:

Let us sum up the case against Ivanov. If he plays a move favored by engines, he is obviously using an engine and guilty of cheating. If he plays an inferior move instead, he is still using an engine but quite purposely covering his tracks (cf. Valeri Lilov's videos). If he behaves oddly or refuses to be submitted to searches, he is clearly guilty. If he behaves normally instead and accepts the searches but nothing is found, it is even worse and indicates that his device is located where no search was performed, and/or that his device can escape detection altogether---including from metal detector---which is far worse. So, Ivanov is always guilty no matter what he does and he should be banned for life. Oh, and don't forget to buy Chessbase products.
++++++++

I think getting local police involved will be a difficult proposition. I can't imagine phoning the cops and stating please come investigate we have someone we believe is cheating- at chess! Unfortunately I can hear the laughter already. I'm also unsure if what borislav is doing is criminal. Cheating at chess doesn't mean he's violating a criminal law. At least not in the USA. Or not in Indiana- my jurisdiction. I bring this up for several reasons: 1) if you're looking for enough evidence to prove him guilty of a crime, good luck. That will not happen without police and as stated- they aren't coming. 2) he's not committing a crime, so don't worry about that anyway. 3) since it's not a crime, lower your burden of proof. Tournament organizers shouldn't have to abide by a guilty beyond a reasonable doubt standard- a preponderance of the evidence or more likely than not standard would serve just fine. Tournament organizers and players would be well served by this. Ivanov isn't entitled to such a strong presumption of innocence- it's not jail time he's faced with losing, it's a game and entry fees.
+++++++++

I had the same doubts about the willingness of the police to interfere with non-violent arguments at a chess tournament. But of course the GM's that have lost to a cheater can start a civil case against him. Would be interesting: in the case at hand, the organizers could be forced to tell what happened. I suspect that no judge would rule against Ivanov just basing it on circumstantial evidence. 
On the other hand, if you just ban an alleged cheater, this can also have consequences. You can find anti-boycott rules in the FIDE handbook. If an organizer acts against these rules, his tournament can lose its official status; players won't be rated anymore - something professionals wouldn't like. If FIDE refuses to follow up on its own rules, the alleged cheater can go to the international sports tribunal (CAS) and force them to do so (and stands a good chance to get financial compensation if he wins). As you say: '... more likely than not standard would serve just fine' will not do here. 
Even in Indiana, they don't hang alleged cattle thieves anymore 'just to be sure'. Not to protect the real thieves, but to protect these other guys that someone thought convenient to hang.
+++++++++++

FIDE and the whole chess world need to lose their naive, Pollyannaish attitude on this issue in a hurry or chess is going to be badly tarnished. If you are an adult and are caught cheating, you should be banned FOR LIFE from any and all competitive chess at any level. FIDE should delete your rating and refuse to rate any event in which you are allowed to participate. If you refuse to be examined to see if you are cheating, the exact same thing must apply. If you are underage, maybe a five or ten year ban would be enough. This isn't excessively harsh; there's simply no excuse for cheating.
+++++++++

Why didn’t they take his electronic device? They had the proof and let him go away with it. Unbelievable!!!!! And reward him for the cheating giving him back the money too. So funny but so sad too.
++++++++

There was no device...just more BS.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

I had the same doubts about the willingness of the police to interfere with non-violent arguments at a chess tournament.

If you ask the participants in the argument to leave and they refuse, the police used to come and ask them to leave. I don't know about now.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

If you ask the participants in the argument to leave and they refuse, the police used to come and ask them to leave. I don't know about now.

The organizer has rented the hall and has control over invitees. Should he issue an order re expulsion of someone and they refuse, he can ask the police to help him assert his private property rights - just like police help a house-owner eject a trespasser who refuses to leave the property. The police are supposed to be about protecting our rights, and helping us assert them - the reason - non-violence (with the police using it only as a last resort, when circumstances allow them to use force - and then to an extent only appropriate to the situation).

Bob A

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

From:

http://www.reddit.com/r/chess/commen...says_borislav/

Roughly translated from this Spanish-language story just published on soy.es:

Namig Guliyev wins Navalmoral International Tournament: Organization disqualifies Bulgarian Ivanov when he was in a position to win, on suspicion of cheating
 2013/12/10 by Miguel Ángel Marcos

NAVALMORAL — Grandmaster Namig Guliyev of Azerbaijan and FIDE Master Borislav Ivanov of Bulgaria were the two star players of the 19th Ajedrez'Villa Navalmoral International Tournament on Sunday, out of the 80 players competing since Thursday at the Moya Moralo convention center.

The first garnered attention for his victory, with six points from seven possible, earning a prize of 3,000€; the second, for his disqualification when he was in a position to win, due to suspicion among his peers, the "cheating" sanctions imposed by his country's Federation, and his continued victories over higher rated players.

Juan Antonio Bermejo Sánchez, president of the organizing club Moralo Chess, was sorry for what happened, since it was the first time this has happened in the tournament's 19 years. He began by making it clear that the organizers had had no knowledge of the Bulgarian player's suspension, because nobody in the Extremadura and Spanish Federation had warned them.

Ivanov's opponents asked the referee to perform a body search for possible electronic devices. "The first time nothing was found [Bermejo Sánchez said], but the next day his opponent asked again that I search him, and Ivanov initially agreed, but when I noticed something like a wire when patting down his chest, he said to stop touching him. I informed him that he would have to show it to us, leave, or be disqualified, and he opted to leave the tournament."

"He has left under suspicion," the Moralo Chess Club President lamented, although the prevailing opinion was that if he had been innocent of the charges, he would have fought to the end to prove it, especially with 3,000 euros at stake, but he did not.

Closing out the top five were Vitali Koziak of Ukraine, Fernando Peralta of Argentina, Vladimir Karen of Armenia and Grigoryany Epishin of Russia. The top Spanish finisher was José Carlos Ibarra of Andalusia in sixth place; the top finisher of Extremadura was Manuel Perez Candelario in 11th place; and the first qualifier was Juan Francisco Mateos, Faky, in position 52.

At the awards ceremony, Juan Antonio Sánchez Bermejo was honored for his work in support of the tournament, which is now expected to continue at least through its 20th edition.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Peter Doggers of ChessVibes questioned Ivanov via Facebook Chat right after he was expelled in Round 6. Here are some of the questions and answers:

Apparently he was searched already after Round 4:

OK, I played the tournament Naval Moral de la Mata. After the fourth round the organizer asked to take off my shoes. I said OK. Before the sixth round they asked to take off all clothes. I asked why. They said because my opponent [asked]. So I took off my cloak but the organizers continued to push to take off my shirt and jeans. I said: "this is a chess tournament, not a striptease bar". My opponent told me that those are the rules of FIDE. I didn't know that the rules of FIDE require you to strip naked before the game. It is humiliating.

And then? They removed you from the tournament?

Yes. They gave me back the fee and gave me 50 euros for compensation. I could not defend myself.

I have to ask this question: how do you explain that your moves are very much the same as Houdini?

Watch my games carefully. This is not true.

It is said that a device with wires was found on your body and that is why they removed you from the tournament. Is this true? What was the device for?

Device???

Different people are saying you had electronics on your chest?

And how does it look?

I don't know, I was not there. That's why I ask you. You say it's not true?

These people are lying. Why did the organizer give back the fee of € 40 and gave me 50 euros compensation? Why not call to police?

So you say you did not have any electronics with you?

Of course. The organizer was just looking for a reason to evict me because my opponents subjected him under pressure.

Source: http://www.chessvibes.com/borislav-i...o-being-banned

++++++++++
And comments by ChessVibes posters:

Let us sum up the case against Ivanov. If he plays a move favored by engines, he is obviously using an engine and guilty of cheating. If he plays an inferior move instead, he is still using an engine but quite purposely covering his tracks (cf. Valeri Lilov's videos). If he behaves oddly or refuses to be submitted to searches, he is clearly guilty. If he behaves normally instead and accepts the searches but nothing is found, it is even worse and indicates that his device is located where no search was performed, and/or that his device can escape detection altogether---including from metal detector---which is far worse. So, Ivanov is always guilty no matter what he does and he should be banned for life. Oh, and don't forget to buy Chessbase products.
++++++++

I think getting local police involved will be a difficult proposition. I can't imagine phoning the cops and stating please come investigate we have someone we believe is cheating- at chess! Unfortunately I can hear the laughter already. I'm also unsure if what borislav is doing is criminal. Cheating at chess doesn't mean he's violating a criminal law. At least not in the USA. Or not in Indiana- my jurisdiction. I bring this up for several reasons: 1) if you're looking for enough evidence to prove him guilty of a crime, good luck. That will not happen without police and as stated- they aren't coming. 2) he's not committing a crime, so don't worry about that anyway. 3) since it's not a crime, lower your burden of proof. Tournament organizers shouldn't have to abide by a guilty beyond a reasonable doubt standard- a preponderance of the evidence or more likely than not standard would serve just fine. Tournament organizers and players would be well served by this. Ivanov isn't entitled to such a strong presumption of innocence- it's not jail time he's faced with losing, it's a game and entry fees.
+++++++++

I had the same doubts about the willingness of the police to interfere with non-violent arguments at a chess tournament. But of course the GM's that have lost to a cheater can start a civil case against him. Would be interesting: in the case at hand, the organizers could be forced to tell what happened. I suspect that no judge would rule against Ivanov just basing it on circumstantial evidence. 
On the other hand, if you just ban an alleged cheater, this can also have consequences. You can find anti-boycott rules in the FIDE handbook. If an organizer acts against these rules, his tournament can lose its official status; players won't be rated anymore - something professionals wouldn't like. If FIDE refuses to follow up on its own rules, the alleged cheater can go to the international sports tribunal (CAS) and force them to do so (and stands a good chance to get financial compensation if he wins). As you say: '... more likely than not standard would serve just fine' will not do here. 
Even in Indiana, they don't hang alleged cattle thieves anymore 'just to be sure'. Not to protect the real thieves, but to protect these other guys that someone thought convenient to hang.
+++++++++++

FIDE and the whole chess world need to lose their naive, Pollyannaish attitude on this issue in a hurry or chess is going to be badly tarnished. If you are an adult and are caught cheating, you should be banned FOR LIFE from any and all competitive chess at any level. FIDE should delete your rating and refuse to rate any event in which you are allowed to participate. If you refuse to be examined to see if you are cheating, the exact same thing must apply. If you are underage, maybe a five or ten year ban would be enough. This isn't excessively harsh; there's simply no excuse for cheating.
+++++++++

Why didn’t they take his electronic device? They had the proof and let him go away with it. Unbelievable!!!!! And reward him for the cheating giving him back the money too. So funny but so sad too.
++++++++

There was no device...just more BS.

Well, if they did actually remove and investigate his shoes, and obviously nothing was found, that puts egg on Max Dlugy's face, doesn't it?

It's becoming increasingly apparent that either Ivanov isn't cheating or that his method is too good to be found.

The commenter who says organizers should just lower their burden of proof of guilt on cheating is opening the door to anyone being accused and pronounced guilty. You don't like someone in the tournament you're in who is playing well? Go to the organizer and accuse him of cheating, his moves are just too good. The organizer doesn't have time to actually analyze game moves right then and there, so the Ivanov precedent means a strip search, and on refusal, eviction from the tournament. What a death knell for organized chess.

Another commenter wrote this:
"If you are an adult and are caught cheating, you should be banned FOR LIFE from any and all competitive chess at any level. ... If you refuse to be examined to see if you are cheating, the exact same thing must apply."

Uh, excuse me, please DEFINE the term 'caught cheating'. A found device is one thing, but failing that, do we expect Dr. Ken Regan to be at every tournament with laptop in hand, analyzing moves and declaring the % that matches Houdini?

As for being examined to see if you are cheating, it could be done like the NFL challenge system. An NFL coach may challenge an official's call by throwing a flag, in which case replay is used to determine whether the call can be overturned. Lose the challenge and you lose a timeout. So in the chess case, you can order someone be searched for possible cheating, but if nothing is found, YOU are evicted from the tournament.

It can't be allowed that players can just accuse other players willy-nilly.

It is understandable why the organizers paid Ivanov extra "compensation", it is because they are afraid of repurcussions. Maybe the next tournament, Ivanov walks in with a lawyer. Someone mentioned anti-boycott rules in the FIDE handbook. What is that all about?

I don't think Ivanov is going to go away quietly. He's discouraged right now... but he keeps coming back, and maybe he's going to get tougher, and perhaps someone with some legal connections will back him up.

Or maybe he'll show up with some mob protectors!

"Oh yeah? You want to soich Mr. Ivanov? You and what army?"

"News at 11... Shootout and knife fight at a local chess tournament. Spectators say there was 'blood on the board'. One player reached for an extra queen and found himself holding the organizer's index finger!"

[Nigel Hanrahan]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Well, if they did actually remove and investigate his shoes, and obviously nothing was found, that puts egg on Max Dlugy's face, doesn't it?

Really? Where's YOUR evidence that Max Dlugy did not agree to be searched and insist that his opponent be as well? Oh, I get it. He's guilty until proven innocent.

Cherry pick, much? lol.

The commenter who says organizers should just lower their burden of proof of guilt on cheating is opening the door to anyone being accused and pronounced guilty.

Actually, NO. They don't need to have the same bar as for a guilty conviction in a criminal case. Nor should they.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that either Ivanov isn't cheating or that his method is too good to be found.

What's apparent is that, for a variety of reasons, the organizers and TDs don't have the spine to ban this obvious cheater. When they do, this storm in a teacup will be over and you'll need to find another Don Quixote to support.

You don't like someone in the tournament you're in who is playing well? Go to the organizer and accuse him of cheating, his moves are just too good. The organizer doesn't have time to actually analyze game moves right then and there, so the Ivanov precedent means a strip search, and on refusal, eviction from the tournament. What a death knell for organized chess.

A death knell for organized chess would be allowing cheaters to prosper. But never mind. You go with that.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Borislav Ivanov returns

Originally Posted by Paul Bonham:
Well, if they did actually remove and investigate his shoes, and obviously nothing was found, that puts egg on Max Dlugy's face, doesn't it?

Really? Where's YOUR evidence that Max Dlugy did not agree to be searched and insist that his opponent be as well? Oh, I get it. He's guilty until proven innocent.

Cherry pick, much? lol.

Whether or not Dlugy agreed to be searched has NOTHING to do with my point. Paraphrasing Dlugy: "The device has to be in his shoes". Search of shoes: no device. Dlugy wipes egg off face.

Red herring much? LOL



Originally Posted by Paul Bonham:
The commenter who says organizers should just lower their burden of proof of guilt on cheating is opening the door to anyone being accused and pronounced guilty.

Actually, NO. They don't need to have the same bar as for a guilty conviction in a criminal case. Nor should they.

Riddle me this, Nigel: What do you propose to be done if in 2014, every major chess tournament around the world is tainted with the stink of all the elite players pointing fingers at each other and saying "S/He cheated!"

You can have the bar set low if you want it, but eventually you get a form of anarchy. Maybe you should read Lord of the Flies to get an idea.




Originally Posted by Paul Bonham:
It's becoming increasingly apparent that either Ivanov isn't cheating or that his method is too good to be found.

What's apparent is that, for a variety of reasons, the organizers and TDs don't have the spine to ban this obvious cheater. When they do, this storm in a teacup will be over and you'll need to find another Don Quixote to support.

Oh, Gary Ruben, are you reading that? He used the weasel word -- "obvious"! Ivanov is an "obvious" cheater, he wrote. What an indictment, and I don't mean of Ivanov!

The lack of spine is on Ivanov's side. All it would take is one tough cookie to guide him and this thing could blow up in FIDE's face. The account that Wayne Komer gave in another post is that Ivanov was searched once and nothing was found. The NEXT DAY someone demanded he be searched again, and the organizer agreed. Now of course, I have no way to know how complete the first search was, but if it was a complete search, then the organizer has NO BUSINESS agreeing to a second search the next day. Is it in the FIDE handbook that a player can be searched every day, maybe even every round, of a tournament? Where does it end?

And by the way, Nigel: it's "tempest in a teacup". Just so you know, I suppose it wasn't "obvious".




Originally Posted by Paul Bonham:
You don't like someone in the tournament you're in who is playing well? Go to the organizer and accuse him of cheating, his moves are just too good. The organizer doesn't have time to actually analyze game moves right then and there, so the Ivanov precedent means a strip search, and on refusal, eviction from the tournament. What a death knell for organized chess.

A death knell for organized chess would be allowing cheaters to prosper. But never mind. You go with that.

I can't disagree with your death knell statement, but what this shows is that all roads lead to ruin. Except the one road that no one wants to travel: CHANGE CHESS.

Adapt or perish.