Rated Forfeits

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  • #16
    Re: Rated Forfeits

    Originally posted by Roger Patterson View Post
    Good luck collecting that $20. And the next time you see the offender, it could be in a different tournament, different organizer so you need to put resources into maintaining an up to date and public blacklist. Rating points on the other hand are a penalty the CFC can enforce cheaply.
    On the other hand, for certain players at certain times, a rated forfeit is a sandbagging tool. Someone mentioned that the USCF doesn't rate forfeits, and I'm wondering if this might be part of the reason.

    Incidentally, some of you may recall that I am looking into an alternative form of chess called Option Chess (that I invented and that I am crediting Louis Morin as being co-inventor because of his many suggestions over the past few months). I mention this because Louis and I have both realized that many practices that are normal in standard chess could be refactored in any future Option Chess federation, were there ever to be such a thing.

    And one of those practices is the game scoring system. The standard chess game scoring system can be improved, and one of the ways of improving it is to account for forfeits or results that are due to things like misconduct, cheating, or any kind of unsportsmanlike conduct detrimental to the event or to the image of the game. Louis brought up the sandbagging point, that any penalty of rating points can be used by someone intent on sandbagging. And so one of the things it seems we could do to discourage forfeits at least early in an event is to distinguish in game scoring between a loss by normal means and a loss by what could be placed under the umbrella of 'misconduct'. At the same time, we could totally remove the horrible 1/2 point system that standard chess uses for draws.

    And so I came up with the following game scoring system:

    10 points - Win
    5 points - Draw
    1 point - normal loss
    0 point - misconduct loss

    My main motivation for this scoring was actually to reward players who play aggressive fighting chess: a win and a normal loss gives 1 more point than 2 draws. This removes the need for tiebreaks based on wins versus draws. But the side effect is to offer something for a normal loss as opposed to a misconduct loss.

    This would still not prevent someone who is 0-5 in an 6-round event from forfeiting their last round game. You can try preventing that by imposing a financial penalty, which risks seeing that player leaving chess altogether. But penalizing rating points is first of all a possible sandbagging tool, and second of all a corruption of the rating system.

    Perhaps for the late-round forfeit situation, what is needed is to replace the stick with a carrot. Make it a federation policy that anyone with a losing record in an event going into the last day or last round and who does not withdraw or forfeit but plays all scheduled rounds receives a discount coupon to any rated event within the next year's time. The amount of the discount can vary, but should be at least 10% or maybe a set dollar amount. Or alternatively, give a discount coupon on a book purchase. Such coupons could be given also to players with even or winning records going into the last round but who are eliminated from winning prize money. It's a way of saying "Thanks for playing and for playing right to the end."
    Only the rushing is heard...
    Onward flies the bird.

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    • #17
      Re: Rated Forfeits

      Originally posted by Roger Patterson View Post
      Good luck collecting that $20. And the next time you see the offender, it could be in a different tournament, different organizer so you need to put resources into maintaining an up to date and public blacklist. Rating points on the other hand are a penalty the CFC can enforce cheaply.
      CFC used to have a blacklist. It didn't seem to be a problem keeping it up-to-date. Most players are creatures of habit so for example if someone forfeits at an RA tournament and they don't want to pay the 20 bucks they are going to find it pretty hard to play in tournaments locally.

      Rating point losses are not a penalty. Rating point gains are not a reward. They distort the rating system for no good reason, imo.
      "Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.

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      • #18
        Re: Rated Forfeits

        I remember Ron Rodgers running a tournament in Ottawa a long time ago. The entry fee included a $5 deposit which was returned to every player who played all their games. At the end of the tournament, he had a big stack of $5 bills - ready to be handed out to the eager players. :-)

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        • #19
          Re: Rated Forfeits

          Originally posted by Paul Leblanc View Post
          I will see about amending Article 433 to make this more clear but I have to agree that this is a pitfall for inexperienced TDs.
          "Inexperienced TDs" is a bit one-sided, in my opinion. If CFC policy is to rate forfeited games, but the current tournament reporting or rating software doesn't rate games marked as forfeits, perhaps a quick reply from CFC to the TD, pointing out that forfeits should be reported as played games, in case a report includes any games marked as forfeits, wouldn't be too much to ask.

          As things stand, I suspect that, while some TDs are marking games forfeit unaware that they're not being rated, other TDs, who don't really support having forfeits rated, are marking the games forfeit on purpose. The lack of response on the CFC side to games marked forfeit confirms that this is a valid option.

          Indeed, 433 read by itself, or read as an update to 418, seems to imply TD discretion on the point. If CFC policy is indeed that forfeits, where prior notification has not been given, are "treated as a game actually played," as in 418, and the TD is accordingly instructed to report forfeited games as games actually played, I agree, on a legislative level, that 433 should be much clearer on that point, since it currently seems to suggest something else. But tournaments submitted with games marked forfeit should be treated differently on an executive or administrative level as well.
          Marcus Wilker
          Annex Chess Club
          Toronto, Ontario

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          • #20
            Re: Rated Forfeits

            A hockey league I played in had a forfeit penalty. At the start of the year, every team put up a $100 deposit. If a team showed up at a game with an insufficient number of players (less than 6 skaters if I recall correctly), the team that showed up and found they had no opponent got the $100 which was good for a few pitchers of beer and some wings. The policy worked reasonably well and benefited the bar which was owned by the same company that owned the league.

            The idea of trying to enforce a fine system for forfeits in our chess club doesn't fill me with too much happiness. It's hard enough getting money off of some people for their CFC and club fees.

            I can see what Tom is saying about rating points but I disagree somewhat. For quite a few players, playing competitive chess is about rating points. Right or wrong that's just the way it is. So penalizing a forfeiting player is a penalty. It does sting so it has the right effect.

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            • #21
              Re: Rated Forfeits

              Originally posted by Marcus Wilker View Post
              This reminds me of the debate about whether students can lose marks for lack of participation, late or missing assignments, etc.

              Regardless of your position on that, it does seem strange that CFC Handbook seems to suggest forfeits are to be rated, but as a matter of fact usually doesn't rate them.

              To be consistent, CFC should side with FIDE and say that forfeits are not to be rated and then (continue to) not rate them, or (continue to) say that forfeits are to be rated and then update the reporting and rating mechanism so this actually happens.
              Hi,

              Yes. CFC should make clear what the policy is. I remember very well submitting crosstables with forfeited results (with SwissSys), and they would be rated with CFC, and not with FIDE. It seems though in the past year or so, specific notes must be made one way or another in submitting reports, or the games have not been rated at CFC level (either). People sometimes ask me which is it, and I tell them... "it should be rated at CFC level, not at FIDE level".
              So which is it? Whatever the decision, tournaments across Canada should deal with results uniformly.

              Alex F.

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              • #22
                Re: Rated Forfeits

                Originally posted by Tom O'Donnell View Post
                Absolutely. If you want to penalize someone then fine them $20 and give that money to the offended party (the opponent). Rating points are neither reward nor punishment.
                Agreed. To rate an unplayed game is completely absurd. It runs the risk of deflating the ratings of sandbaggers, offering them incentive to no-show once they are out of the money. It also risks artificially causing the player who showed up to be over-rated, possibly bumping him or her to a higher section in a future tournament and costing him or her, unfairly, the chance to play for money in their proper section. A chess rating is to measure chess strength, nothing more.

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                • #23
                  Re: Rated Forfeits

                  I think the fear of sandbaggers is overrated. At a club like the SCC, there is absolutely no benefit to sandbagging as there are no cash prizes (over the past year or two we've been giving out some books as prizes that were donated to the club from a fellow who no longer had room for his extensive collection of chess books but that is hardly worth sandbagging for). I would be very curious to know the number of rated game that happen in Canada in a year where there is a possibility of winning something valuable (like cash) against games where players are playing for fun (and rating points). Playing poorly (like I have recently) simply means I am relegated to a section dominated by 7 and 8 year-olds. Not my idea of something worth sandbagging for. From my experience, players in the SCC are motivated to play well so that they can play in higher sections and get to play against better players. I would say that for the vast majority of players, the chance of winning money playing chess is fairly remote. The SCC with over 120 members and I believe the Annex Chess Club (also with a fairly substantial membership) probably represent a significant portion of the rated chess games played in a year where sandbagging makes little sense.
                  Last edited by Steve Karpik; Monday, 12th May, 2014, 10:52 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Rated Forfeits

                    Originally posted by Steve Karpik View Post
                    I think the fear of sandbaggers is overrated.
                    It's cheating and, as such, it affects not just the player concerned but also many others as well. Players like to know that their sport is administered fairly, and that those who violate the rules are punished. Just look at the response to the allegations of cheating by Borislav Ivanov; many of his opponents simply refused to play him and, due to the obstinate approach by the administrators, even lost rating points as a result.
                    Dogs will bark, but the caravan of chess moves on.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Rated Forfeits

                      I agree on not rating unplayed games. However, what about games in which one player is clearly caught violating an anti-cheating rule? It doesn't have to be the computer kind. Have there been cases where a player was forfeited after being caught looking at an opening book in the foyer? Was the game then a rated victory for the opponent, or was it regarded as "unplayed" since one side was a "borg"?

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                      • #26
                        Re: Rated Forfeits

                        Ironically last Monday we had more forfeits than usual for a club night, and a natural question was "are they rated?" Rules says - "yes", and it seems the ball is in the TD hands to proper mark those results. The pairing program whatever TDs are using must confirm with the rule.

                        As the philosophical matters: shall they be rated by CFC?

                        FIDE does not rate unplayed games:

                        Unplayed Games
                        5.1 Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated."


                        Unplayed games do no count for norms too.
                        1.42d
                        Games which are decided by forfeit, adjudication or any means other than over the board play. Other games once started, which are forfeited for whatever reason, shall however be included. In the instance of a last round game where the opponent forfeits, the norm shall still count if the player must play in order to have the required number of games, but can afford to lose."


                        It might be natural to adopt the FIDE approach, but as a running club tournaments person I like the status quo - the small "punishment", and a small "reward" for wasting time for other player.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Rated Forfeits

                          It's clear that the current CFC policy is to rate forfeited games. I'll have an amendment to the Handbook ready for the next governors' meeting to make it clear. I may include an "exceptional cases" clause whereby a TD or player can request an exception from the Rating Auditor.
                          Asking the CFC office to query all "F" results is a good idea but I'm not sure given the office workload that can happen. It might also delay processing the weekly rating updates.
                          I will contact Thad Suites to see if he can find a way around this CFC/USCF difference in his next version of SwissSys. This is probably a long shot.

                          If there is enough support to change the CFC policy, a motion (or at least a discussion) needs to be presented at a future governors meeting.
                          Paul Leblanc
                          Treasurer Chess Foundation of Canada

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                          • #28
                            Re: Rated Forfeits

                            Originally posted by Paul Leblanc View Post
                            It's clear that the current CFC policy is to rate forfeited games. I'll have an amendment to the Handbook ready for the next governors' meeting to make it clear. I may include an "exceptional cases" clause whereby a TD or player can request an exception from the Rating Auditor.
                            Asking the CFC office to query all "F" results is a good idea but I'm not sure given the office workload that can happen. It might also delay processing the weekly rating updates.
                            I will contact Thad Suites to see if he can find a way around this CFC/USCF difference in his next version of SwissSys. This is probably a long shot.

                            If there is enough support to change the CFC policy, a motion (or at least a discussion) needs to be presented at a future governors meeting.
                            Paul I'm surprised to find you of all people in favour of rating unplayed games given that you are so passionate about the integrity of the rating system.

                            I don't think the current policy is unclear in any way, just the application of that policy. So the motion and an immediate counter-motion/amendment to not rate them is probably good to have the conversation.
                            Christopher Mallon
                            FIDE Arbiter

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                            • #29
                              Re: Rated Forfeits

                              Originally posted by Paul Leblanc View Post
                              It's clear that the current CFC policy is to rate forfeited games.
                              What????????
                              No. 418 says rate them, 433 says don't rate them.
                              I am not sure which one was first, but they are certainly contradictory, yes?

                              Anyway, it did become practice to leave it to the discretion of the TD.

                              With the addition of the SwissSys software,
                              forfeited games are not rated.
                              if you want the game rated: do not mark it as a forfeit.

                              Should forfeited games be rated?
                              Both sides of the argument are 100% totally correct. :)
                              Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Monday, 12th May, 2014, 09:22 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Rated Forfeits

                                Did I give Chris the impression that I was in favour of rating forfeited games? As Bob implies, there are good arguments both ways. It's just that my interpretation of the handbook is that the intent is to rate them but it is poorly worded. I don't like giving the TD complete discretion. It would be better to state the CFC policy clearly then give the TD a method to go against the policy for exceptional cases.
                                Paul Leblanc
                                Treasurer Chess Foundation of Canada

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