A protest to Nigel Haranham

[Paul Bonham]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

No little girls ever got stoned to death in Israel at the hands of the government for posting on facebook. No school girls got shot in the head or had acid thrown in their faces for wanting to go to school and being outspoken about it. No school girl got sold for $12 as a child bride slave. There are problems in Israel mostly because they are surrounded by people with the stated goal of killing them but you can't seriously be claiming some kind of moral equivalency.

This whole business of Kirsan = Putin = Hitler is a distraction for the fact that we have a challenger who has some real baggage. If he can run against Hitler or even Putin he just might be able to win. Unfortunately he is running against Kirsan and not one of those other individuals that everyone seems to want us to focus on. It doesn't matter if you manage to overthrow half a dozen federations in order to force them to vote the way you want them to vote. It won't be enough.

Wow, what a double standard, and a totally illegitimate one at that! Did Sasha or anyone else here accuse KI or anyone at all in Ukraine or Russia of being implicit in stoning little girls to death or of throwing acid in their faces or having them sold to slavery? NO! Any trial judge would have your remarks stricken from the record, totally inappropriate and inflammatory. I find your inappropriate use of such crimes for your own political gain absolutely disgusting. You have now earned my complete disrespect.

The double standard is your mention of moral equivalency, and then saying "Kirsan = Putin = Hitler is a distraction". Well.... UNLESS IT'S TRUE! If indeed Kirsan is guilty of crimes such as deliberate starvation of whole populations, then the so-called "real baggage" that Kasparov carries has NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE. And you, Vlad Drkulec, would be hoisted by your own petard.

Let me ask you a direct yes-or-no question. Your "Kirsan = Putin = Hitler is a distraction" statement is basically you claiming Kirsan is innocent of any such charges. Please be more direct: ARE YOU CLAIMING WITH 100% CERTAINTY THAT KIRSAN IS TOTALLY INNOCENT OF ANY CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY?

We are all familiar with the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty', but we also know that at the highest levels of government and business, guilt can be papered over. Vlad, if you see even a 1% probability that Kirsan is guilty of crimes against humanity, then you cannot under any semblance of morality vote for him.

In that case, where you have even the slightest doubt of Kirsan's innocence, your own statement about moral equivalency gives you only one proper and decent political way forward. You must declare that you personally are in favor of an abstention by Canada in the FIDE Presidential election. And I only say abstention because of your stated claims against Kasparov which as far as we know... are only substantiated by mysterious emails, perhaps from climate change scientists (D'oh!).

By the way, I'm assuming that an abstention would be a matter of public record, whereas an actual vote either way would not?

[Sasha Starr]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

I have issues with Israel at times as well. Nobody's hands are clean there either.

I note that you are originally from Ukraine, so obviously this is a factor I need to consider when reading your posts, but if NATO or the UN are to be involved, it is to halt bloodshed, not aid in it. If it devolves to civil war, then we are best to stay out, as in Syria.

"Of course, for the Ukrainian government to tolerate an armed uprising would be to deprive itself of one of the essential elements of a sovereign state. Which explains why Kiev is using paratroops and airstrikes in an atempt to recover control of the airport in restive Donetsk". This is from our Globe and Mail (May 26). What if some terrorists God forbid would take over Toronto Pearson, or even Island airport and refused to lay down their weapons? What would we do? Please answer.

[Sasha Starr]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

"ARE YOU CLAIMING WITH 100% CERTAINTY THAT KIRSAN IS TOTALLY INNOCENT OF ANY CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY?"
And are YOU claiming that Gary is totally innocent of any crimes against Salov? LOL!

[Sasha Starr]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

This is from the Guardian: The only people who voted with wholehearted enthusiasm for Europe at the weekend were Ukrainians. Except in the disturbed regions of the east, they turned out across that country to endorse Petro Poroshenko, who stressed his belief in the European Union during his campaign, as president. One voter explained the reason why in these words: "Russia is corruption, the military, the police, lack of freedom." This is exactly what KI, a close subordinate of Putin, is standing for.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

Wow, what a double standard, and a totally illegitimate one at that! Did Sasha or anyone else here accuse KI or anyone at all in Ukraine or Russia of being implicit in stoning little girls to death or of throwing acid in their faces or having them sold to slavery? NO! Any trial judge would have your remarks stricken from the record, totally inappropriate and inflammatory. I find your inappropriate use of such crimes for your own political gain absolutely disgusting. You have now earned my complete disrespect.

Paul you write very long posts but it is not always clear that you read what other people have said before going off on one of your off topic epic rants. The subject of Israel was brought up. I have given my take on the situation in Israel. I do not have much patience for the notion that Israel is morally equivalent to those who would seek to destroy her.

Much as certain people would like everything to be about GK and KI and the Ukraine and Russia and Sasha and Sid that is not the case. This is not a trial except perhaps in the court of public opinion and it seems to me that I am winning that battle at least among those who exhibit some common sense. If your moral outrage is some kind of an act then save it. I have dealt with much more skilled practitioners of the techniques that you are seeking to employ here and they failed miserably. If you really believe in this line of horse manure that you are trying to peddle then you have more problems than I can be expected to deal with here.

The double standard is your mention of moral equivalency, and then saying "Kirsan = Putin = Hitler is a distraction". Well.... UNLESS IT'S TRUE!

The burden is on you to support this ridiculous assertion. There are two clear breaks in your chain of logic. For all of his sins Putin is clearly at this point not Hitler. To claim that he is shows a certain insensitivity to the millions of victims of Hitler. Further Kirsan is not Putin. He was let go by Putin many years ago.

If indeed Kirsan is guilty of crimes such as deliberate starvation of whole populations, then the so-called "real baggage" that Kasparov carries has NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE.

So far I see only you making such a claim. If Kirsan was guilty of such things then he would be a very bad man. There is no evidence of such things even in the articles presented claiming to show such things. If you are going to present evidence that you have not read or understood then this is going to be a big waste of time as dealing with you and your hissy fits often are.

And you, Vlad Drkulec, would be hoisted by your own petard.

Let me ask you a direct yes-or-no question. Your "Kirsan = Putin = Hitler is a distraction" statement is basically you claiming Kirsan is innocent of any such charges. Please be more direct: ARE YOU CLAIMING WITH 100% CERTAINTY THAT KIRSAN IS TOTALLY INNOCENT OF ANY CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY?

I am not claiming with 100% certainty that you are totally innocent of any crimes against humanity.

We are all familiar with the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty', but we also know that at the highest levels of government and business, guilt can be papered over. Vlad, if you see even a 1% probability that Kirsan is guilty of crimes against humanity, then you cannot under any semblance of morality vote for him.

I see 0% probability that Kirsan is guilty of crimes against humanity. I see a number of people using intellectually dishonest arguments to try and make such associations. It is very manipulative and certainly capable of moving someone who is intellectually stunted but you are just losing face as far as I am concerned.

[Sid Belzberg]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

"There is no evidence of such things even in the articles presented claiming to show such things."
Vlad, would you consider an article that has eye witness reports of Mother's protesting that they can't feed their children as evidence of this? Arguably the report could be false or even the protesting mothers are making false claims but it would still be considered evidence. Whether it is good or bad evidence is a separate issue. In my opinion it is good evidence. i have no doubt you will consider this bad evidence.
I would consider the murder of an opposition journalist by two of Kirsan's close aides as good evidence that Kirsan ordered the murder. I have no doubt that you differ on this too. I could give you a list of 25 opposition journalists murdered in Russia under the regime of Putin where in many cases government aides were involved but indeed it is difficult to prove that Putin gave the order. Seems to me that Kirsan is very much of Putin's ilk.
As for Putin dumping Kirsan years ago that was purely for optics and had nothing to do with a rift between the two men. Kirsan has had plenty of contact with Putin since then and has full support of the Russian government in his campaign including use of their embassies around the world.
You have implied that because you consider my approach to be disrespectful that this is the reason you do not want to endorse Gary. I am not sure if the rationale behind this decision is in the best interest of chess players. My understanding is that as an executive in an NFP that you have to evaluate both candidates on what is best for chess in Canada and not on what is best for your personal feelings about supporters of either candidate.
The only logical argument I have seen from you is that Gary is not a favorite to win therefore no benefits will accrue to Canada. I believe I have addressed that earlier in this thread. Furthermore I have mentioned some downside scenarios if Kirsan wins that I view as very possible.
Thank you for your consideration.

[Garland Best]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

I did not say that Isreal was EQUALLY bad. I said that I had issues with Israel at times. There is the matter of degree here.

I think I'm done posting to this thread. It's too emotionally charged.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

I did not say that Isreal was EQUALLY bad. I said that I had issues with Israel at times. There is the matter of degree here.

I think I'm done posting to this thread. It's too emotionally charged.

Where is the damn climate change thread when you need it? :)

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

"There is no evidence of such things even in the articles presented claiming to show such things."
Vlad, would you consider an article that has eye witness reports of Mother's protesting that they can't feed their children as evidence of this?

Show me the article and quote the line where it says this. It seems to me that the article is quite old and not relevant to the situation of today. It talked about poverty but I didn't see any mention of starving children.

Arguably the report could be false or even the protesting mothers are making false claims but it would still be considered evidence. Whether it is good or bad evidence is a separate issue. In my opinion it is good evidence. i have no doubt you will consider this bad evidence.

It has been a while since I read that article but I don't recall any mention of starving children. There were mentions of poverty.

I would consider the murder of an opposition journalist by two of Kirsan's close aides as good evidence that Kirsan ordered the murder.

Why would they stop and not indict Kirsan as well if that is the case? It seems to me from the articles and evidence you yourself quoted that at one point he was targetted for removal by the Kremlin but upon investigation they found Kirsan to be guilty of only minor irregularities.

I have no doubt that you differ on this too. I could give you a list of 25 opposition journalists murdered in Russia under the regime of Putin where in many cases government aides were involved but indeed it is difficult to prove that Putin gave the order. Seems to me that Kirsan is very much of Putin's ilk.
As for Putin dumping Kirsan years ago that was purely for optics and had nothing to do with a rift between the two men. Kirsan has had plenty of contact with Putin since then and has full support of the Russian government in his campaign including use of their embassies around the world.

We'll see how Sasha's campaign to add Kirsan to the sanctions list goes.

You have implied that because you consider my approach to be disrespectful that this is the reason you do not want to endorse Gary.

Not just you. At the beginning of this I was leaning to Gary with some misgivings. Those misgivings have only grown. At this point I believe that if Garry wins FIDE will be driven into the ground. For all the claims of having learned from past missteps there is no indication in his behaviour here and in dealing with other Federations that he has learned anything from these past experiences. In some cases you can bulldoze changes in the federation to get your slate of candidates who will vote for you but the problem is that everyone is watching this. There are lots of federations apparently sitting on the fence who are supporting Kirsan. They are waiting until it is too late to engineer a coup before they openly support KI.

Canada was very much an afterthought as the first thing I heard about this was a very short time before a nomination was required. The ground was really not prepared. It helps to demonize your opponent in order to justify a win at all costs mentality but the casual observer who is not heavily invested in this process is turned off by such arguments especially if they don't seem to be based upon correct and entirely factual arguments. I respect you and understand that you are emotionally invested in Garry winning because you think that this is the right thing for chess. I don't expect you to be perfect and I didn't intentionally seek to hurt your feelings.

I am not sure if the rationale behind this decision is in the best interest of chess players. My understanding is that as an executive in an NFP that you have to evaluate both candidates on what is best for chess in Canada and not on what is best for your personal feelings about supporters of either candidate.

That is correct. It is not always easy to separate out the personal feelings as the directors are not blocks of wood and they are reading this. Guilt by association works both ways. If you hitch your wagon to people who engage in distasteful actions don't be surprised if some of the blame for their disagreeable actions gets affixed to your candidate.

The only logical argument I have seen from you is that Gary is not a favorite to win therefore no benefits will accrue to Canada. I believe I have addressed that earlier in this thread. Furthermore I have mentioned some downside scenarios if Kirsan wins that I view as very possible.
Thank you for your consideration.

Thank you for this post. I will certainly use it when discussing the final vote with the directors. At this point we are still soliciting the input of voting members (previously known as governors).

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

I did not say that Isreal was EQUALLY bad. I said that I had issues with Israel at times. There is the matter of degree here.

I think I'm done posting to this thread. It's too emotionally charged.

We all have issues with others at times. That is life. Yes this thread is emotionally charged and we need to move past that charge and look at the real issues in the campaign and not focus on these externalities which have nothing to do with this decision that we have to make.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

Where is the damn climate change thread when you need it? :)

I have been neglecting it while occupied with issues of the FIDE election and CFC governance. You can only exist in the eye of one firestorm at a time.

[Sasha Starr]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

"We'll see how Sasha's campaign to add Kirsan to the sanctions list goes".
I've had a great meeting. NEED A COMPLETE FILE ON KI. Thank you.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

"We'll see how Sasha's campaign to add Kirsan to the sanctions list goes".
I've had a great meeting. NEED A COMPLETE FILE ON KI. Thank you.

I hope you didn't represent yourself as having some official capacity with the Chess Federation of Canada. If you did it was a misrepresentation.

I hope you are not asking someone else to do your dirty work for you.

[Sasha Starr]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

i hope you didn't represent yourself as having some official capacity with the chess federation of canada. If you did it was a misrepresentation.

I hope you are not asking someone else to do your dirty work for you.

you'll never learn anything by talking - only by listening.

[Sid Belzberg]

Re: A protest to Nigel Haranham

"Show me the article and quote the line where it says this. It seems to me that the article is quite old and not relevant to the situation of today. It talked about poverty but I didn't see any mention of starving children."
The article that makes reference to Kalmykian mothers protesting because they have no money to feed their children is by Sarah Hurst entitled "Elista Law" http://www.anusha.com/chmurd.htm


"When I heard about Yudina's murder, I immediately read her article. It was called, 'Psychiatry is used in Kalmykia for non-medicinal purposes.' She told the story of a group of hunger-striking women who were protesting at not having enough money to feed their children. She interviewed Kalmykia's chief psychiatrist, who forcibly 'treated' the leader of the hunger strikers. The psychiatrist claimed that a hunger strike was an "inadequate reaction" to such a trivial problem. Following the murder, the same woman hunger striker arrived in Moscow, saying she believed she would be next on the hit list.

Ilyumzhinov banned a demonstration in protest at Yudina's murder. She was obviously a prominent thorn in his crown. Sovietskaya Kalmykia was forcibly evicted from its Elista offices in 1994 and Yudina complained that her staff were beaten up by security guards of a bank that has links to the Kalmyk government, according to The Moscow Times, the Russian capital's leading English-language paper. Ilyumzhinov once said he didn't understand people like Yudina, who wished to harm Kalmykia. The most damning evidence comes from Thomas de Waal of The Times, who actually interviewed Yudina. Following that, Ilyumzhinov said he was "disappointed" and refused to see de Waal, threatening to report him to his editor."

Strangely the reference Sarah makes to this is from the murdered journalists last article that makes reference to starving children.

Sarah Hurst is a well known author who wrote the book "The Curse of Kirsan" here is more information on her. http://www.amazon.com/Curse-Kirsan-S.../dp/B007K4UHTS

"It has been a while since I read that article but I don't recall any mention of starving children. There were mentions of poverty."

Many articles exist including the one mentioned above that you have not read.


"Why would they stop and not indict Kirsan as well if that is the case? It seems to me from the articles and evidence you yourself quoted that at one point he was targetted for removal by the Kremlin but upon investigation they found Kirsan to be guilty of only minor irregularities."

Many credible groups maintain that this is a result of a corrupt system that Kirsan is very skilled at navigating.

"We'll see how Sasha's campaign to add Kirsan to the sanctions list goes."

As I mentioned my larger concern would be sanctions from the US and EU. I am aware of foreign government organizations in Canada outside of chess that are concerned about Kirsan being legitimized as the head of Fide whom they consider an agent of Putin. However, that is the extent of my knowledge on the Canadian political front as I spend most of my time in the US.

"That is correct. It is not always easy to separate out the personal feelings as the directors are not blocks of wood and they are reading this. Guilt by association works both ways. If you hitch your wagon to people who engage in distasteful actions don't be surprised if some of the blame for their disagreeable actions gets affixed to your candidate."

I accept that someone within my group may have got over aggressive/emotional and excited about this issue and conveyed a message that appeared to be pushy. I apologize for that. We are simply trying to say that the ramifications are quite serious from government bodies that are not related to chess as I pointed out earlier in this thread.

"Thank you for this post. I will certainly use it when discussing the final vote with the directors. At this point we are still soliciting the input of voting members (previously known as governors).'
Thank you again for your consideration.