CYCC Vancouver bid.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

Disappointing to read that even after the compliance corrections were made, the Chess Federation of Canada didn't see the value, or more important, doesn't have the ability to understand how to use this compliance of/by the Vancouver Bid as a means of - encouragement to all - by allowing this bid to come forward.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

Disappointing to read that even after the compliance corrections were made, the Chess Federation of Canada didn't see the value, or more important, doesn't have the ability to understand how to use this compliance of/by the Vancouver Bid as a means of - encouragement to all - by allowing this bid to come forward.

As Steve Douglas pointed out, the amended bid required a motion to get it back on the agenda. Apparently that motion wasn't made. I don't understand why that should result in criticism of the CFC. After all, aren't there at least two Voting Members from B.C.? Why didn't they move/second as needed? Perhaps there are things we chesstalk hacks don't know; e.g. maybe the organizers behind the Vancouver bid don't enjoy the confidence of the B.C. chess community?

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

As Steve Douglas pointed out, the amended bid required a motion to get it back on the agenda. Apparently that motion wasn't made. I don't understand why that should result in criticism of the CFC. After all, aren't there at least two Voting Members from B.C.? Why didn't they move/second as needed? Perhaps there are things we chesstalk hacks don't know; e.g. maybe the organizers behind the Vancouver bid don't enjoy the confidence of the B.C. chess community?

I don't believe that was the problem. I think that for some, they didn't want to disrespect the president. It is actually a fairly rare situation that the chair gets challenged (except perhaps in the case of the CFC). I was talking to one of my students who is involved in student politics about the nuances of Roberts Rules which I can do because of the kind generosity of a Chesstalk poster who sent me a surprise care package early in my presidency. Perhaps in other cases they thought they were 100% likely to lose the vote after doing a behind the scenes head count of their supporters. In any case if they jumped the hurdle of getting 2/3 of their vote to amend their application who am I to stand in their way? If the VMs are willing to crack open the foundation to support such a bid who am I to oppose it. That is what would have been necessary I think given this year's situation with two world tournaments instead of one to support with CYCC. Its all well and good to discount the importance of the money but they don't expect to be the ones sweating when we have to finance the teams. Not sending teams is not really an option. Realistically the only way we can cut costs is by not sending coaches.

The whole process was flawed. Everyone has to start much earlier. The Windsor bid is the CFC being desperate in order to make sure there was an event. With the base of 60 or 70 players it was already viable with the addition of Michigan for CO/NAYCC. CYCC is fairly easy to do and not lose money as long as you control costs and scale up as numbers go up. Either the FQE bid or the CMA bid would have been fine and would have had no Windsor bid to compete with if they had presented a bid in early October. Once everyone got involved you have to follow through for the stakeholders. I didn't expect that the Windsor bid would be so strong. I didn't expect any fundraising for a few months. People practically threw money at us. I think the biggest thing was that we decided to approach Caesars just to get a complete set of options. We told them our story and they liked it a lot. Hence the too good to be true bid which was watered down because it was likely that there would be only one tournament and maybe two once formidable competition like the CMA and FQE jumped into the fray.

Those who complain about a conflict of interest don't really understand the concept. It is not a conflict of interest if I go out and drum up bids and even help in their preparation if I don't make money from the bids. It is my job and that of every member of the executive to encourage this kind of chess activity. The Windsor bids are non-profit. I am not making money as a result of Windsor taking on these tournaments. In fact, I will be losing money as it will cut into my free time and capacity to earn money but I get to help make some more chess happen. I don't think Windsor will bid on CYCC/CO again for at least five years unless after the AGM there are no bids or the bids on the table are so substandard we can't sit on our hands. We will develop some new tournaments where we don't have to bid. They probably won't be limited to just Canadians and they will be FIDE rated. I will direct some of them and play in others. There will be multiple organizers in Windsor. I don't expect to need a slush fund to operate future tournaments.

On the Vancouver bid I opened the barn door wide and explained the way out or in and even told everyone I wouldn't be upset if they over ruled me. If it was the will of the voting members, who am I to oppose it? Such appeals should be undertaken immediately and be based on some error in the ruling though with a 2/3 vote the voting members can throw out all the rules. Anyway, anyone who can read the voting members forum has a pretty good idea of what happened. Some are just posturing.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

After all, aren't there at least two Voting Members from B.C.? Why didn't they move/second as needed?

Wow Peter, simply stunning.

I don't believe that was the problem. I think that for some, they didn't want to disrespect the president. It is actually a fairly rare situation that the chair gets challenged (except perhaps in the case of the CFC). '...' Perhaps in other cases they thought they were 100% likely to lose the vote after doing a behind the scenes head count of their supporters. In any case if they jumped the hurdle of getting 2/3 of their vote to amend their application who am I to stand in their way?

I hope those Vancouver orgs who for whatever reason(s) quit on their own initiative, post why they did so. They had the VMs, at least in numbers. In the long run, even if it is was for the lack of pure profit (which is what I suspect), organized chess in Canada will benefit from their reason(s) why.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

As Steve Douglas pointed out, the amended bid required a motion to get it back on the agenda. Apparently that motion wasn't made. I don't understand why that should result in criticism of the CFC. After all, aren't there at least two Voting Members from B.C.? Why didn't they move/second as needed? Perhaps there are things we chesstalk hacks don't know; e.g. maybe the organizers behind the Vancouver bid don't enjoy the confidence of the B.C. chess community?

I don't believe that was the problem. I think that for some, they didn't want to disrespect the president. It is actually a fairly rare situation that the chair gets challenged (except perhaps in the case of the CFC). I was talking to one of my students who is involved in student politics about the nuances of Roberts Rules which I can do because of the kind generosity of a Chesstalk poster who sent me a surprise care package early in my presidency. Perhaps in other cases they thought they were 100% likely to lose the vote after doing a behind the scenes head count of their supporters. In any case if they jumped the hurdle of getting 2/3 of their vote to amend their application who am I to stand in their way? If the VMs are willing to crack open the foundation to support such a bid who am I to oppose it. That is what would have been necessary I think given this year's situation with two world tournaments instead of one to support with CYCC. Its all well and good to discount the importance of the money but they don't expect to be the ones sweating when we have to finance the teams. Not sending teams is not really an option. Realistically the only way we can cut costs is by not sending coaches which would be a pity.

The whole process is flawed. Everyone has to start much earlier. The Windsor bid is the CFC being desperate in order to make sure there was an event. With the base of 60 or 70 players it was already viable with the addition of Michigan for CO/NAYCC. CYCC is fairly easy to do and not lose money as long as you control costs and scale up as numbers go up. Either the FQE bid or the CMA bid would have been fine and would have had no Windsor bid to compete with if they had presented a bid in early October. Once everyone got involved you have to follow through for the stakeholders. I didn't expect that the Windsor bid would be so strong. I didn't expect any fundraising for a few months. People practically threw money at us. I think the biggest thing was that we decided to approach Caesars just to get a complete set of options. We told them our story and they liked it a lot. Hence the too good to be true bid which was watered down because it was likely that there would be only one tournament and maybe two once formidable competition like the CMA and FQE jumped into the fray.

Those who complain about a conflict of interest don't really understand the concept. It is not a conflict of interest if I go out and drum up bids and even help in their preparation if I don't make money from the bids. It is my job and that of every member of the executive to encourage this kind of chess activity. The Windsor bids are non-profit. I am not making money as a result of Windsor taking on these tournaments. In fact, I will be losing money as it will cut into my free time and capacity to earn money but I get to help make some more chess happen. I don't think Windsor will bid on CYCC/CO again for at least five years unless after the AGM there are no bids or the bids on the table are so substandard we can't sit on our hands. We will develop some new tournaments where we don't have to bid. They probably won't be limited to just Canadians and they will be FIDE rated. I will direct some of them and play in others. There will be multiple organizers in Windsor. I don't expect to need a slush fund to operate future tournaments.

On the Vancouver bid I opened the barn door wide and explained the way out or in and even told everyone I wouldn't be upset if they over ruled me. If it was the will of the voting members, who am I to oppose it? Such appeals should be undertaken immediately and be based on some error in the ruling though with a 2/3 vote the voting members can throw out all the rules. Anyway, anyone who can read the voting members forum has a pretty good idea of what happened. Some are just posturing.

[Scott Richardson]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

The CYCC should not be in the same city twice in a row when there is another viable bid. It's a big country. The president of the CFC has a mandate. It seems a bit distasteful when it's also the presidents home town,

Windsor held the CYCC last year without the CO. Quebec City should hold the CYCC and the CO and they would perform a memorable job for everyone involved.

I see now there were more players who killed the Vancouver bid. I received a few emails from Hattie Guo expressing hope and giving me a thumbs up. It's a darn shame when people willing to organize chess events are discouraged from doing so. When Hattie wrote that the experience could leave a bad taste in peoples mouths you can bet that has happened...To say the bid was dropped because it was out of respect for the president is a little bit out there.


The chess community in Canada isn't the healthiest.

[Gary Hua]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

The CYCC should not be in the same city twice in a row when there is another viable bid. It's a big country. The president of the CFC has a mandate. It seems a bit distasteful when it's also the presidents home town,

Windsor held the CYCC last year without the CO. Quebec City should hold the CYCC and the CO and they would perform a memorable job for everyone involved.

I see now there were more players who killed the Vancouver bid. I received a few emails from Hattie Guo expressing hope and giving me a thumbs up. It's a darn shame when people willing to organize chess events are discouraged from doing so. When Hattie wrote that the experience could leave a bad taste in peoples mouths you can bet that has happened...To say the bid was dropped because it was out of respect for the president is a little bit out there.


The chess community in Canada isn't the healthiest.

I think Windsor made a remarkable bids for all three of them. That have actually raise the standard of bidding and left the voters no choice but to vote for them.

If anyone in future wants to make a bid, please plan out early and discuss with their province fc. Don't wait till last minute to make a bid.

Please don't blame anyone for their own failure. If you or anyone can submit a bid which is good, I don't see why no t you will win the bid. I don't see any favourism in this case.

This year CYCC was well organized. Kudos to the organizers and I think next year will be even better. They had actually raised the bar of organizing the tournament. The others should learn from them instead of criticizing them.

[Gary Hua]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

The CYCC should not be in the same city twice in a row when there is another viable bid. It's a big country. The president of the CFC has a mandate. It seems a bit distasteful when it's also the presidents home town,

Windsor held the CYCC last year without the CO. Quebec City should hold the CYCC and the CO and they would perform a memorable job for everyone involved.

I see now there were more players who killed the Vancouver bid. I received a few emails from Hattie Guo expressing hope and giving me a thumbs up. It's a darn shame when people willing to organize chess events are discouraged from doing so. When Hattie wrote that the experience could leave a bad taste in peoples mouths you can bet that has happened...To say the bid was dropped because it was out of respect for the president is a little bit out there.


The chess community in Canada isn't the healthiest.

I think Windsor made a remarkable bids for all three of them. That have actually raise the standard of bidding and left the voters no choice but to vote for them.

If anyone in future wants to make a bid, please plan out early and discuss with their province fc. Don't wait till last minute to make a bid.

Please don't blame anyone for their own failure. If you or anyone can submit a bid which is good, I don't see why no t you will win the bid. I don't see any favourism in this case.

This year CYCC was well organized. Kudos to the organizers and I think next year will be even better. They had actually raised the bar of organizing the tournament. The others should learn from them instead of criticizing them.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

The CYCC should not be in the same city

twice in a row when there is another viable bid.

That is your rule. My rule would be that the CYCC should not be in the

same city twice in a row when there is a better bid or an equivalent

bid. There are other rules including the rules of the CFC, rules of

order that govern meetings (Robert's Rules). In this case it is the

latter two that sunk the Vancouver bid.

In reality there are a number of rules or shoulds that apply to this

situation and have been offered by certain people:

The CYCC should not be in the same city twice in a row when there is

another viable bid.
There should be a CYCC and a Canadian Open every year regardless of the cost to the CFC.
Regional groups should stick together and support their proposal no

matter how bad the bid is and no matter what the cost to the CFC of

going forward with their bid.
Bidders should submit a bid by the Annual General Meeting (AGM) of the

CFC.
The CYCC and Canadian Open should be tied together.
The CYCC and Canadian Open should not be tied together.
Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Ottawa, Calgary and Vancouver should be

given preference when considering competing bids.
If you have a job to do, then you should do it well.

It's a big country. The president of the CFC has a mandate. It seems a

bit distasteful when it's also the presidents home town, Windsor held the CYCC last year without the CO.

You really don't understand my mandate. One of my mandates is that I have a fiduciary duty to the CFC. I can't promote an option that is not in the best interest of the CFC.

Windsor was not ready to hold the Canadian Open last year. There were no other bids by the time of the AGM for either the Canadian Open or the CYCC. We had a bid for the Canadian Open only percolating elsewhere.

This bid is coming from Windsor because I don't really have the resources to put together a bid in another city. I have zero budget from the CFC. Bob might correct me if I am wrong but I don't think I have charged a single thing to the CFC in two and a half years as president even when I have done things which were in my capacity of president which involve me spending my own money on gas and transportation for example. Usually these activities could be organized in such a way that they allowed me to play in a tournament and I justified not expensing things because I would have had to pay the travel to the tournament in any case. Being CFC president almost requires a full time commitment without any renumeration, almost a vow of poverty. I can't put together a bid in Vancouver without any outside budget. I might be able to put together a bid as far away as Toronto or at points along the way to Toronto without any outside budget but if I want it to be manageable it pretty much has to be in the Windsor to Chatham area. The bid comes from Windsor because that is where I live, where I can find people willing to back such a bid and to help make a successful tournament a reality and organize the volunteers needed to put on a successful event or three.

When we reach mid November and there is not even a whiff of any other bid for any of these three events then forgive me for stepping up and trying to make sure they all happen. To get them to happen I have to move forward and take the steps required to put them on including talking to the venues and hotels, the visitors and convention bureau and so on and of course all the volunteers that are required to make this a success. Conversations with the venues and the other stakeholders lead to a cascading series of meetings as the board of the visitors and convention bureau and the management team at Caesars had a significant impact on the development of this situation. Once you mobilize those kinds of resources you better follow up on their behalf or don't expect the door to be opened the next time you come knocking.

Quebec City should hold the CYCC and the CO and they would perform a memorable job for everyone involved.

I don't disagree that the FQE and the CMA would do a great job on any tournament that they touch. I have said that all along. I love and respect both of those groups. They do a lot for chess in this country.

I see now there were more players who killed the Vancouver bid. I

received a few emails from Hattie Guo expressing hope and giving me a

thumbs up. It's a darn shame when people willing to organize chess

events are discouraged from doing so. When Hattie wrote that the

experience could leave a bad taste in peoples mouths you can bet that

has happened...To say the bid was dropped because it was out of

respect for the president is a little bit out there.

I try to write precisely. I don't always succeed. I did not say the bid was dropped out of respect for the president.

The chess community in Canada isn't the healthiest.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

I think Windsor made a remarkable bids for all three of them. That have actually raise the standard of bidding and left the voters no choice but to vote for them.

If anyone in future wants to make a bid, please plan out early and discuss with their province fc. Don't wait till last minute to make a bid.

Please don't blame anyone for their own failure. If you or anyone can submit a bid which is good, I don't see why no t you will win the bid. I don't see any favourism in this case.

This year CYCC was well organized. Kudos to the organizers and I think next year will be even better. They had actually raised the bar of organizing the tournament. The others should learn from them instead of criticizing them.

Thank you Gary. To be fair this was a last minute bid by Windsor too. There will be more bids from Windsor that are better prepared with a longer lead time. We will let others organize CYCC and CO unless there are no bids. I think it would be helpful if when people are interested in organizing something they let everyone know so that those that don't really want an event but are bidding to make sure it happens don't need to do all the work in preparing a bid.

[Paul Leblanc]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

I supported the Vancouver bid and I have confidence in the organizers.
Once the bid was ruled out of order and several influential governors danced on the grave I realized that to drag it out was pointless.
I would have voted for the Vancouver bid as I feel the major events have to move around outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor or chess will continue to decline in the rest of Canada.
We have a President who actually plays and organizes chess events. He takes time to speak with anyone who wants to talk. He posts regularly on Chess Talk and the governors' meetings and goes to great lengths to explain his decisions. I can't imagine the hours he has put into various projects such as the NFP Act.
Of course we don't all agree on all of his decisions but we should be grateful to have him.

[Paul Leblanc]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

I supported the Vancouver bid and I have confidence in the organizers.
Once the bid was ruled out of order and several influential governors danced on the grave I realized that to drag it out was pointless.
I would have voted for the Vancouver bid as I feel the major events have to move around outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor or chess will continue to decline in the rest of Canada.
We have a President who actually plays and organizes chess events. He takes time to speak with anyone who wants to talk. He posts regularly on Chess Talk and the governors' meetings and goes to great lengths to explain his decisions. I can't imagine the hours he has put into various projects such as the NFP Act.
Of course we don't all agree on all of his decisions but we should be grateful to have him.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

I supported the Vancouver bid and I have confidence in the organizers.

I too am sure that given time and support the organizers would have been able to come up with a good or even a great bid. The problem is that I had to deal with what I had and not what might have been. At times I get so busy that I can't find time to breathe and Hattie approached us at one of those times. The forum server was down. I didn't even know if we were going to be able to start the meeting on time. Crucial information for the Windsor bid rolled in late Thursday and late afternoon on Friday. Of course I still had to prepare chess lessons for my students and get in a car and go teach the lessons and deal with lots of emails mostly dealing with chess. Hal Bond is probably getting sick of me contacting him on Skype and email so many times in a short period. Anyway with all this going on, I didn't have any attention to spare.

Once the bid was ruled out of order and several influential governors danced on the grave I realized that to drag it out was pointless.
I would have voted for the Vancouver bid as I feel the major events have to move around outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor or chess will continue to decline in the rest of Canada.
We have a President who actually plays and organizes chess events. He takes time to speak with anyone who wants to talk. He posts regularly on Chess Talk and the governors' meetings and goes to great lengths to explain his decisions. I can't imagine the hours he has put into various projects such as the NFP Act.
Of course we don't all agree on all of his decisions but we should be grateful to have him.

You guys are going to make me blush. Thank you.

[Scott Richardson]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

I know there would be a contingent, now, coming from the interior of BC if the CYCC was an event in the lower mainland.
None are going to get that chance when the CYCC is $4500 away in Windsor. Kids grow fast.

. They had actually raised the bar of organizing the tournament. The others should learn from them instead of criticizing them.

Organized chess for kids is expensive. In Windsors case, raising the bar means raising the price, diluting the pool by exclusion of lower and middle class families by not making the CYCC more accessable. I'm not posting to insult but money is not everything especially when it comes to the exposure and ability to play chess.
The CYCC shouldn't be in Windsor this year. It should be in Quebec city.
Actually, it should be in Vancouver but now we know.


After Paul's post I almost feel a bit guilty taking up your time Vlad. No doubt your completely dedicated. I know that.
Looking forward to Premium Chess FIDE's online server and training platform.


.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: CYCC Vancouver bid.

I know there would be a contingent, now, coming from the interior of BC if the CYCC was an event in the lower mainland.

How big of a contingent would there be if we held an event like CYCC in the interior of BC particularly if the entry fee was less than the current CYCC model say something like $100 or $50. Fill in your number here and tell me how many kids you can deliver.

None are going to get that chance when the CYCC is $4500 away in Windsor. Kids grow fast.

Organized chess for kids is expensive.

Try comparing it with organized hockey.

In Windsors case, raising the bar means raising the price, diluting the pool by exclusion of lower and middle class families by not making the CYCC more accessable. I'm not posting to insult but money is not everything especially when it comes to the exposure and ability to play chess.
The CYCC shouldn't be in Windsor this year. It should be in Quebec city.
Actually, it should be in Vancouver but now we know.


After Paul's post I almost feel a bit guilty taking up your time Vlad. No doubt your completely dedicated. I know that.
Looking forward to Premium Chess FIDE's online server and training platform.


.

And you are probably the person in Canada most responsible for making that a priority for me.