FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

[Bob Armstrong]

Now, since it is 2016, the junior girls in Canada are almost entirely in "open" junior clubs, lesson groups, after-school classes, regular chess clubs (At Scarborough Chess Club, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, all juniors and adults, male and female, play in the one swiss tournament each Thursday....the junior girls are becoming deadly!),etc. When they play in Weekend tournaments, there is almost never a Junior Girls section (In fact maybe there NEVER has been one). And at the younger levels, they play totally equal to the boys (Some say their results are better).

BUT....

Talented junior girls, and their parents, want Medals/Titles, because they are made AVAILABLE under the FIDE junior girl and women's parallel/supplementary systems. So rather than play in the U 14 Open section of the Canadian Youth Chess Championships, our top Canadian girls, with a few notable exceptions (Hazel Smith was one in the past), choose, or are pushed into by their parents, the U 14 GIRLS section of the CYCC. And this even when the girl is competitive in the open section, and has some chances to win.

Why is this?

In my view, it is only human nature, especially when a title in Canada wins you a travel subsidy to the FIDE World GIRLS U 14, where you can go for a Junior Girls WORLD CHAMPION TITLE. We all like to hit milestones, get awards that confirm the progress we are making.

So the problem is FIDE! As long as FIDE continues the parallel system, with its parallel titles, the world will continue to lose talented junior girl players into the girls/women's system, where they will improve much more slowly, because the average ratings there are lower than in the comparable open sections.

QUESTION: Is 2016 the time for some member country of FIDE (Canada?) to bring a motion to now disband the separate, parallel women's chess system?

Bob A

[William Yuan]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Hi Bob,

I was watching a research movie with Ted style speech. The professor told people the truth which female's brain system is different with male's. So, by history data for worldwide and generally said, female players could play stronger than male players once a while or twice a while, or may be more than those one or two. However, data says, male players are stronger than female and reason is as the professor made in Ted style talk research show, which is (again) they have different brain system.

My point is it is necessary that the fide and CFC have to continue the "separate, parallel women's chess system". This benefits for female chess community.

William

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Hi Bob,

I was watching a research movie with Ted style speech. The professor told people the truth which female's brain system is different with male's. So, by history data for worldwide and generally said, female players could play stronger than male players once a while or twice a while, or may be more than those one or two. However, data says, male players are stronger than female and reason is as the professor made in Ted style talk research show, which is (again) they have different brain system.

My point is it is necessary that the fide and CFC have to continue the "separate, parallel women's chess system". This benefits for female chess community.

William

Hi William:

Thanks for the input....do you happen to have the URL for the TED video of the talk you refer to.....I'd love to view it.

Also, you may not know this, but many, many years ago, WIM Nava Starr (Then Shterenberg - hope I have the spelling right), made a formal presentation to either the CFC Executive, or the Voting Members Council (Then the Governors), on the issue of women and chess.

She presented scientific references available at that time that argued that the wiring of the female brain was quite different than that of the male. Apparently the male wiring was much more amenable to, and favoured success in, chess. For women, the game was more difficult.

I don't know what the evaluation was of her presentation at the time......but I believe women's equality was high on the Canadian agenda, and my suspicion is that her presentation was thought dubious, and just shelved.

I don't believe Nava really follows Chesstalk, but Sascha often does, and maybe he can shed more light on this for us all.

Bob A

[William Yuan]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Hi Bob，

The professor name is Dr. Daisy L. Hung who made speech at TEDxTaipei 2015. Her personal contact could be found here

William

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Hi Bob，

The professor name is Dr. Daisy L. Hung who made speech at TEDxTaipei 2015. Her personal contact could be found here

William

Hi William:

Thanks - was now able to google it - here is the Video URL - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWnUczsfGv0 (Not sure of the Chinese Language being used).

Unfortunately, there appears to be no translation to English.

So next up is:

Does anyone know of some written material in English by Daisy, or a peer at the National Central University of Taiwan, Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience, on Chess and Brain Hardwiring (Male & Female)? Here is the website of the University: http://icn.ncu.edu.tw/en/index.aspx .

Bob A

[Pierre Denommee]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

I have been told that the primary reason for which there is a separate program for women is social. This is especially true for girls who put the social side of any sport in front of the competitive side while boys usually do the opposite.

[Sasha Starr]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Bob, William, don't you find it funny that in 1982 WIM Nava Starr, my wife, has written an article published in the Chess Canada magazine, named "Why men are better at chess then women" while being in her prime and according to her rating at the time would destroy 99,99% of the Canadian male chess players?

How many females are in the current top 100 ELO rated players?

What will ever convince you that for the next 200 years (probably much more!) males will remain superior to women in chess?

[Vadim Tsypin]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Does anyone know of some written material in English by Daisy

A couple of research articles to start with:

• Open vs. closed skill sports and the modulation of inhibitory control

• Sex differences in how erotic and painful stimuli impair inhibitory control

[Vadim Tsypin]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

"In general, our reviews show that although intelligence is frequently correlated with initial performance on an unfamiliar task, after extended periods of skill acquisition the relation is no longer statistically reliable. For example, a recent longitudinal study of children’s improvements in chess found that the predictive power of IQ diminishes dramatically as skill improves, and did not predict rate of improvement after accounting for practice activity"
The Parieto-Frontal Integration Theory (P-FIT) of intelligence: Converging neuroimaging evidence

And a Master's thesis:
The role of brain-based gender differences on the vocabulary learning and consolidation skills and strategies

[Roger Patterson]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

......
QUESTION: Is 2016 the time for some member country of FIDE (Canada?) to bring a motion to now disband the separate, parallel women's chess system?

Bob A

I have two reactions to your post.

the first is that fundamentally you want a motion that reads "FIDE (or Canada) does not approve of and discourage tournaments of type x". That seems a little odd for organizations that ostensibly promote chess. I mean sure, if there was an event "skinheads for Trump" benefit tournament maybe the CFC would want to disassociate itself from that but any thing else? So if you don't care for women's only events, I suggest you continue not organizing women's events but that you also don't interfere with those who do care and put the effort into organizing those events.

The second is that AFAIK, you are a somewhat old retired guy who does not have any particular credentials in women's issues or women's chess and yet you want to busy yourself (and this is not the first time you have posted on the subject) with regulating what kind of chess events women play in. And frankly, I find it kind of weird.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

I have been told that the primary reason for which there is a separate program for women is social. This is especially true for girls who put the social side of any sport in front of the competitive side while boys usually do the opposite.

Hi Pierre:

What is the consequence of the women' placing a higher value on the social aspect? Is this saying that therefore they will not play chess as well, because they are less motivated to become good (While the competitive aspect encourages males to learn chess better?)?

Bob A

Note: I have am all for women only "TOURNAMENTS", if women find them socially more fun, and this is a high priority for them in playing chess. It is the whole parallel system with titles that I feel has now served its purpose, and we should retire it. I don't think we should have a whole separate system, just so women can have more fun playing chess, than they do in the open system.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Bob, William, don't you find it funny that in 1982 WIM Nava Starr, my wife, has written an article published in the Chess Canada magazine, named "Why men are better at chess then women" while being in her prime and according to her rating at the time would destroy 99,99% of the Canadian male chess players?

How many females are in the current top 100 ELO rated players?

What will ever convince you that for the next 200 years (probably much more!) males will remain superior to women in chess?

Hi Sasha:

I knew you'd have some input!:D

It is almost impossible to locate the Chess Canada article, I would think (Can someone put up a link, if there is one).....I would love to read it now, in 2016, 34 years later......and still relevant.

Alternatively, I do not know if this would be an appropriate piece to somehow put onto the news section (Or whatever might be the correct site name) of Chess Supersite? Then those interested could take a look at it?

I guess another alternative is if it can be scanned in and then posted.

Anyway, I imagine I am not alone in being curious as to the case Nava put together for her thesis on this, at that time, with the science then available.

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

;)

I have two reactions to your post.

the first is that fundamentally you want a motion that reads "FIDE (or Canada) does not approve of and discourage tournaments of type x". That seems a little odd for organizations that ostensibly promote chess. I mean sure, if there was an event "skinheads for Trump" benefit tournament maybe the CFC would want to disassociate itself from that but any thing else? So if you don't care for women's only events, I suggest you continue not organizing women's events but that you also don't interfere with those who do care and put the effort into organizing those events.

Hi Roger:

I am quite pleased if organizers have a market for women only tournaments...no problem with this.....as I have none with junior girls, juniors, seniors, etc. It is simply a matter of chess promotion....is there a chess group that will appreciate it and benefit from it.

The distinction I'm trying to make (And from your response, I'm not doing a very good job on it) is between "Women ONLY Tournaments", and a whole system, parallel to the open one, with separate titles, and where performance is lower than in the open system. It is the system and its titles that should be disbanded, not women-only tournaments. This is subject of course, to the most interesting modern scientific evidence, that some of which points to the proposed fact that women can NEVER play chess as well as men (Subject to an anomaly such as Judit Polgar). And that is the argument, isn't it......is she truly a human anomaly........women generally are never supposed to be able to achieve what she achieved?

[QUOTE=The second is that AFAIK, you are a somewhat old retired guy who does not have any particular credentials in women's issues or women's chess and yet you want to busy yourself (and this is not the first time you have posted on the subject) with regulating what kind of chess events women play in. And frankly, I find it kind of weird.[/QUOTE]

In my defense, I can say that being retired allows me to pursue my interests!;) And I do spend some of my time still, promoting chess, though not as I used to, admittedly. I think if you ask at Scarborough Chess Club, you will find that I am one of the strong promoters of our junior girl players. And I do lose to them regularly.

And you are right, that I have no particular credentials with respect to women's chess (Or generally, women's issues). But you will find that I did work with, as a Voting Member (Governor at that time), a number of the past Women's Coordinators of the CFC, and did take somewhat of an interest in what they were doing, making a few recommendations, and working with them on some issues at that time.

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System - Some Resource Articles

Now, since it is 2016, the junior girls in Canada are almost entirely in "open" junior clubs, lesson groups, after-school classes, regular chess clubs (At Scarborough Chess Club, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, all juniors and adults, male and female, play in the one swiss tournament each Thursday....the junior girls are becoming deadly!),etc. When they play in Weekend tournaments, there is almost never a Junior Girls section (In fact maybe there NEVER has been one). And at the younger levels, they play totally equal to the boys (Some say their results are better).

BUT....

Talented junior girls, and their parents, want Medals/Titles, because they are made AVAILABLE under the FIDE junior girl and women's parallel/supplementary systems. So rather than play in the U 14 Open section of the Canadian Youth Chess Championships, our top Canadian girls, with a few notable exceptions (Hazel Smith was one in the past), choose, or are pushed into by their parents, the U 14 GIRLS section of the CYCC. And this even when the girl is competitive in the open section, and has some chances to win.

Why is this?

In my view, it is only human nature, especially when a title in Canada wins you a travel subsidy to the FIDE World GIRLS U 14, where you can go for a Junior Girls WORLD CHAMPION TITLE. We all like to hit milestones, get awards that confirm the progress we are making.

So the problem is FIDE! As long as FIDE continues the parallel system, with its parallel titles, the world will continue to lose talented junior girl players into the girls/women's system, where they will improve much more slowly, because the average ratings there are lower than in the comparable open sections.

QUESTION: Is 2016 the time for some member country of FIDE (Canada?) to bring a motion to now disband the separate, parallel women's chess system?

Bob A

I hope this may be helpful for those wanting to pursue this subject more seriously - it is a list of the resources this thread has produced on the scientific issue of the hard-wiring of male and female brains, and the relationship of this to chess competency:

Some Scientific Sources

1. TED Video URL - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWnUczsfGv0 (Not sure of the Chinese Language being used; seems to be no English translation) – Daisy L. Hung. See university Website as well: National Central University of Taiwan, Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience – Searching for material on “Chess and Brain Hardwiring (Male & Female) & Chess”? - http://icn.ncu.edu.tw/en/index.aspx .

2. Canadian woman player, and multi-time Canadian Women’s Chess Champion, WIM Nava Starr (then Shterenberg - spelling?) - an article published in a 1982 issue of the “Chess Canada” magazine, named "Why men are better at chess then women".

3. Open vs. closed skill sports and the modulation of inhibitory control: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0055773

4. Sex differences in how erotic and painful stimuli impair inhibitory control: http://medhuman1.tmu.edu.tw/philip/Y...9Cognition.pdf

5. The Parieto-Frontal Integration Theory (P-FIT) of intelligence: Converging neuroimaging evidence": http://journals.cambridge.org.sci-hu...40525X0700132X - In general, our reviews show that although intelligence is frequently correlated with initial performance on an unfamiliar task, after extended periods of skill acquisition the relation is no longer statistically reliable. For example, a recent longitudinal study of children’s improvements in chess found that the predictive power of IQ diminishes dramatically as skill improves, and did not predict rate of improvement after accounting for practice activity."

6. The role of brain-based gender differences on the vocabulary learning and consolidation skills and strategies (Master's thesis):https://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12610252/index.pdf .

Bob A

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: FIDE & The Women's Parallel Chess System

Bob wrote:

2. Canadian woman player, and multi-time Canadian Women’s Chess Champion, WIM Nava Starr (then Shterenberg - spelling?) - an article published in a 1982 issue of the “Chess Canada” magazine, named "Why men are better at chess then women".

I couldn't find the article in any of the 1982 or 1983 issues (at least it wasn't listed in the Table of Contents at the front of each issue). If you can get a more accurate date, I could probably scan (or photograph) the article.