What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

[Fred Harvey]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

August 14, 2016

Is any one else but me worried that, as early as a month from now, ChessTalk could go off-line forever?

Am I reading Larry’s statements wrong?

The thought of Chesstalk posts being preserved for eternity is about as terrifying as the thought of Trump winning! For reasons that are strangely similar.... Nothing to see here, lets move it along!

[Kerry Liles]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

If you are referring to me, Kerry, it's not a case of wanting to be a lawyer. But I do own and operate a private business (known in the U.S. as a Limited Liability Company) and so I do strive to keep tabs on these kinds of things in general. I'm not running a forum, so I don't know exact legalities about the data on forums in general, but everything I've seen indicates that rights are determined by a forum's Terms of Service which anyone wanting to post must agree to.

The clause that Vadim posted made it very clear that owner(s) of "ChessTalk / Parlons Echecs" have all rights to the data but not exclusively.

That does raise one question: what exactly is "ChessTalk / Parlons Echecs"? Is it the domain name chesstalk.com ? Or did Larry et al set up a company separate from or a subsidiary of Chess N Math and call that company ChessTalk / Parlons Echecs? If it is the latter, then the domain name can be sold separately from the data. Although I do believe that anyone who is capable of doing it may copy the data and republish it.

I wasn't referring to you specifically Paul, but if the shoe fits... :)
I only wanted to make a distinction between the domain name and the contents.
I am not a lawyer either, but I am not sure the two items are automatically conflated.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

August 14, 2016

Is any one else but me worried that, as early as a month from now, ChessTalk could go off-line forever?

Am I reading Larry’s statements wrong?

Wayne, perhaps you and a few (or several) others could form a business and use that business to purchase (using joint funds) what Larry is offering for sale. You appear to be someone who has the time and the inclination to keep ChessTalk going as it is.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

All of the wanna be lawyer talk aside, I am pretty sure Larry was talking about selling the *domain name*
and NOT the contents of the site. Larry can jump in and correct my impression if that is wrong...

My initial reaction was an idea to preserve the threads as historical archive, not necessarily
to make them available on an ongoing basis for additional back and forth.

If you are referring to me, Kerry, it's not a case of wanting to be a lawyer. But I do own and operate a private business (known in the U.S. as a Limited Liability Company) and so I do strive to keep tabs on these kinds of things in general. I'm not running a forum, so I don't know exact legalities about the data on forums in general, but everything I've seen indicates that rights are determined by a forum's Terms of Service which anyone wanting to post must agree to.

The clause that Vadim posted made it very clear that owner(s) of "ChessTalk / Parlons Echecs" have all rights to the data but not exclusively.

That does raise one question: what exactly is "ChessTalk / Parlons Echecs"? Is it the domain name chesstalk.com ? Or did Larry et al set up a company separate from or a subsidiary of Chess N Math and call that company ChessTalk / Parlons Echecs? If it is the latter, then the domain name can be sold separately from the data. Although I do believe that anyone who is capable of doing it may copy the data and republish it.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

August 14, 2016

Is any one else but me worried that, as early as a month from now, ChessTalk could go off-line forever?

Am I reading Larry’s statements wrong?

[Kerry Liles]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

All of the wanna be lawyer talk aside, I am pretty sure Larry was talking about selling the *domain name*
and NOT the contents of the site. Larry can jump in and correct my impression if that is wrong...

My initial reaction was an idea to preserve the threads as historical archive, not necessarily
to make them available on an ongoing basis for additional back and forth.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

I would like to point out two things.

1) Let's compare the (sadly) standard Terms of Use of modern social media sites with the Forum Rules each of us agreed to abide by when registering for ChessTalk.

Facebook: "you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License)"

ChessTalk, full text of Rules: "Forum Rules
Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Complete Registration' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason."

The comparison makes it clear that ChessTalk members retain full rights to their contributions and do not agree to have them republished in any shape or form.

2) Quebec laws regarding protection of private information are the most stringent in Canada. According to them, such data as "where you live" (part of ChessTalk user profile), "your favourite activities and life habits" (e.g., info you post about the chess tournaments you played in), "your image (photos or videos)" etc. are considered your personal information. You have a right to limit public access to it. Anyone who wants to publish it is required to obtain your permission.

I am of course not a lawyer, but I think your post has cleared up a few things. First of all, the clause that reads:

"The owners of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason."

This appears to state without ambiguity that the owners of ChessTalk, WHOMEVER THAT MAY BE, owns the rights to all posted data. The key word in that clause is (imo) the word "edit". If the owner(s) of ChessTalk can edit your post, it is no longer your post. You may write a post that says "I think Donald Trump is an idiot" and the ChessTalk owner(s) could literally edit that to say "I think Donald Trump is a genius".

Of course, that is a hypothetical case, and we all like to think that that kind of editing would never occur. But according to the clause, that type of editing MAY occur.

Therefore the owner(s) of ChessTalk may do what they like with the data. You as the OP could never even claim it is your post. The owner(s) could come back and say, "No, we edited that." They don't even have to provide proof of such editing, because the clause doesn't say that edits must be documented. Yes, edits by moderators or anyone at ChessTalk usually ARE documented, but there's no obligation for ChessTalk owner(s) to do that.

Therefore if Larry wishes to sell the domain but not give the new owner(s) rights to publishing the data up until the date of the sale, he may have to make that explicit in the terms of the sale, signed off by the buyer(s). The original posters would have no say in this, according to that clause.

The one ambiguous word in that clause is the word "move". In any legal proceedings, lawyers could argue that "move" includes the act of republishing the data on another site. The word "move" also could imply rights to transfer ownership of the data. But I could also see other lawyers arguing against both of those points. Therefore again, I would recommend the terms of the sale be very explicit about publishing rights.

The missing word in the clause is the word "exclusive". Does that mean anyone may republish the postings? That is the second point....

And on that point, I don't think original posters nor owner(s) of ChessTalk have any rights regarding prevention of republishing the data they post on ChessTalk. I am basing this on the above, but also on this: it is known to all posters that ChessTalk permits anyone, including guests, to view the posts. Since there are no restrictions, the OP cannot suddenly decide that (s)he is going to apply some new restrictions.... (to a post that may not even be what they originally posted).

Again, this would seem to indicate that if Larry wants exclusive rights to publish the data up until the date of the sale, he may only prevent the new owner(s) from republishing it if that is explicitly included in terms of the sale. Similarly, the new owner(s) would have to put in terms preventing Larry from republishing the data, if that is what THEY want.

Aside from that, it would appear that anyone else may republish the data without restriction. Larry could have prevented that by replacing the words "reserve the right" with "reserve exclusive rights" (and should have explicitly included the word "republish" as well, but again, "move" may suffice in a court of law). But he also would have needed to advise all guests to and members of ChessTalk that copying of posts is strictly prohibited.

Vadim, what you wrote about users' private information ON THEIR PROFILE may apply, depending on whether the clause mentioned above clashes with Quebec law.... but the ChessTalk clause does spell out it applies to "any content item" which would include profile information. But because that perhaps could be seen as private information, Quebec law may supersede the clause in that instance.

"The old "Void where prohibited by law" trick..... second time this week!" -- Maxwell Smart

"Words are important!" -- Big Bird

"It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." -- Bill Clinton

[Vadim Tsypin]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

Who do they buy the rights to that data from (if anyone)? The data was gathered when Larry owned ChessTalk. But it's still available on the site owned by someone else. Does either party actually own the rights to republish those posts?

I would like to point out two things.

1) Let's compare the (sadly) standard Terms of Use of modern social media sites with the Forum Rules each of us agreed to abide by when registering for ChessTalk.

Facebook: "you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License)"

ChessTalk, full text of Rules: "Forum Rules
Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Complete Registration' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of ChessTalk / Parlons Échecs reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason."

The comparison makes it clear that ChessTalk members retain full rights to their contributions and do not agree to have them republished in any shape or form.

2) Quebec laws regarding protection of private information are the most stringent in Canada. According to them, such data as "where you live" (part of ChessTalk user profile), "your favourite activities and life habits" (e.g., info you post about the chess tournaments you played in), "your image (photos or videos)" etc. are considered your personal information. You have a right to limit public access to it. Anyone who wants to publish it is required to obtain your permission.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

You really need to take that with a pound and a little bit of salt.

If it says so on the internet it must be true.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

Only some of the content is priceless... some of it is worth exactly zero... ;)

Much of it is worth less than zero if the buyer picks up the liability associated with past content in the archive. In Canada people have two years after they learn of the content to sue for defamation. A new buyer will surely scrub the archive.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

I heard a lot of people would like that chesstalk has not existed. They have now a good chance to make dreams come true LOL

Neil Frarey sent me a link to a website that tries to evaluate the value of websites.

You really need to take that with a pound and a little bit of salt.

[Fred McKim]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

Larry has posted the "value" of the website on another thread. The domain name itself would only be worth a fraction of this amount.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

Paul, I think Larry was clear that he was only selling the domain name.
Surely, the content is priceless!

Let's say 10 years from now someone is writing a book chronicling how the world viewed climate change in the first 15 years of this century, and somehow they knew about the infamous chesstalk thread and wanted to use material from it in the book. And at that future time, ChessTalk is still what it is right now, the buyer just kept the site going as it was.

Who do they buy the rights to that data from (if anyone)? The data was gathered when Larry owned ChessTalk. But it's still available on the site owned by someone else. Does either party actually own the rights to republish those posts?

I'm not sure if there is a law already in place for this... that is, sale of an existing forum domain name, where nothing is specified in the sale documents about who owns the data. If anyone has insight into that, please chime in.

I'm just suggesting to Larry that if he wants to own the data up until the date of the sale, make sure it's documented.

Another possible scenario, maybe more likely, is that 5 years from now ChessTalk is something else entirely and no trace of the current forum postings exist on that site, and Larry suddenly wants to resurrect ChessTalk but under a different domain name. If he launches the new forum and includes this data, the owner of ChessTalk may take Larry to court to make Larry pay to use the data that the buyer thought was included in the purchase of ChessTalk.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

Paul, I think Larry was clear that he was only selling the domain name.
Surely, the content is priceless!

Only some of the content is priceless... some of it is worth exactly zero... ;)

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: What is the dollar value of some chess websites?

the question to you, Larry, is: are you willing to sell not just the domain name, but ownership of all its current data?

Paul, I think Larry was clear that he was only selling the domain name.
Surely, the content is priceless!