Which rating should we use?

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  • #31
    Re: Which rating should we use?

    Originally posted by Victor Plotkin View Post
    About your example with USA organizers. They want to reduce chances of foreign players to win class prize. Very simple. Canadian organizers should do exactly the same.
    That's quite the pejorative statement about our neighbors to the south.

    But, even if true, I in no way would want to set my policies like that - to deliberately disadvantage foreign players. I would be offended if someone claimed that of me. I suspect the reason for Larry's question is to establish what would be the fairest and most consistent policy for all players.

    Elsewhere in the thread, it is apparent that there is no agreement on what a good conversion to USCF to FIDE to FQE to CFC is, let alone CFC to India. In principle, it's a complicated topic and hard for anyone to be sure. I'm not even sure what the conversion of BC CFC is to Ontario CFC! We typically do it at par. I'm not sure why some dismiss Indian ratings out of hand but see no reason to ignore them myself apart from not having any experience in what a good conversion rate would be.

    This lack of agreement on conversion rates all supports the policy that you should pick a rating system and use it. That there are players whose ratings in that system are obsolete or based on too few games means flexibility and judgement is required. In Larry's particular case, not enough information is supplied (as to number of games rated and recency of those games in each system.)
    Last edited by Roger Patterson; Thursday, 10th August, 2017, 02:04 PM.

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    • #32
      Re : Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

      Originally posted by Kevin Pacey View Post
      I forgot I might have an old USCF rating that's still considered valid. I played for U of T's 'B' team in a Pan-Am event that was circa 1981.]
      There is a Kev Pacey with a provisional rating of 2410 based on 10 games.

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      • #33
        Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

        Originally posted by Louis Morin View Post
        There is a Kev Pacey with a provisional rating of 2410 based on 10 games.
        I thought only my best friends (plus the odd girl back in the day) called me Kev rather than Kevin. :) Well, if that's who they've got me down as, and it's perpetually valid, I may have to report that old USCF rating from now on whenever an organizer asks if I have one. Not sure if it'll always/ever wipe out my eligibility for an U2400 prize (in some future FIDE/Cdn/FQE rated tournament), if there is one.
        Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
        Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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        • #34
          Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

          Originally posted by Kevin Pacey View Post
          Not sure if it'll always/ever wipe out my eligibility for an U2400 prize (in some future FIDE/Cdn/FQE rated tournament), if there is one.
          Only in USCF events I guess. In Quebec, we look at USCF ratings only for Americans.

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          • #35
            Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

            Originally posted by Louis Morin View Post
            Only in USCF events I guess. In Quebec, we look at USCF ratings only for Americans.
            That's nice for me, especially if it applies elsewhere in Canada too. Fwiw, Roger may have thought CFC ratings were out-of-whack about when I finally hit 2400 Regular CFC in the new millenium, though just for a short time, before he helped 'correct' our rating sytem.
            Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
            Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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            • #36
              Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

              Fwiw, here's a wiki re: chess played at fast time controls. Note the various criticisms/comments concerning Blitz towards the end, by various strong players, including a number of world champs:

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_chess
              Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
              Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

                As far as the Indian fellow goes, I don't know anything about URS or Indian but I would examine his USCF and FIDE records and choose whichever is most current, i.e. where did he play the most games recently?
                Paul Leblanc
                Treasurer Chess Foundation of Canada

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                • #38
                  Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

                  Here's some work I did in 2012. My conclusion at the time was that CFC and USCF were about at par and that CFC ratings were somewhat inflated vs FIDE, especially among the top players.

                  September 2012 USCF vs CFC vs FIDE
                  Name USCF CFC FIDE Comments
                  So, Wesley 2692 2724 2667
                  Sambuev, Bator unr 2689 2535
                  Bluvshtein, Mark 2539 2632 2590
                  Kovalyov unr 2644 2598
                  Noritsyn, Nikolay unr 2605 2461
                  Hansen 2479 2579 2502
                  Gerzhoy, Leonid 2539 2571 2461
                  Krnan, Tomas unr 2562 2415
                  Samsonkin, Artiom 2553 2396 1498p USCF from 2001
                  Quan, Zhe 2503 2642 2431 Last CFC game July 2009
                  Castellanos, Renier unr 2501 2491
                  Hambleton, Aman 2488 2293 1990p USCF from 2007
                  Doroshenko unr 2482 2336
                  Porper, Edward unr 2475 2420
                  Hebert, Jean 2466 2399 2452 USCF from 1999
                  Pechenkin, Vladimir 2377 2436 2333
                  Laceste, Loren 2493 2280 2290
                  Calugar, Arthur 2453 2429 2308
                  Panjwani, Raja 2451 2517 2403
                  Hartman, Brian 2443 2438 2374
                  Kaminski, Victor 2418 2315 2247
                  O’Donnell, Tom 2434 2350 2457 USCF from 2000
                  Plotkin, Victor 2411 2354 2208
                  Cheng, Bindi 2402 2480 2415
                  Cummings, David 2391 2443 2328
                  Piasetski, Leon 2389 2405 2298
                  Qin, Ziyi 2378 2422 2237
                  Yoos, John 2393 2340 2405 USCF from 1999
                  Sasata, Robert 2385 2273 2348 USCF from 1994
                  Yam, Alex unr 2373 2267
                  Kraiouchkine, Nikita 2343 2240 2123p USCF from 2006
                  Gardner, Robert 2353 2236 2161 USCF from 1999
                  Trevor, Vincent unr 2353
                  Lee, Vicente unr 2333 2255
                  Fuentebella, Mayo unr 2318 2167
                  Gansvind, Valeria unr 2309 2246
                  Masse, Hugues 2373 2291 2213
                  MacKinnon, Keith 2143 2301 2152
                  Jiang, Louie 2356 2421 2338
                  Thavandiran, Shiyam 2349 2514 2338
                  Wang, Richard 2347 2459 2361
                  Kleinman, Michael 2333 2394 2323
                  Plotkin, Mark 2316 2103 1902
                  Berube, Richard 2307 2236 2189
                  Kulic, Sasa 2293 2255 2214
                  Baragar, Fletcher 2278 2280 2337 USCF from 1998
                  Lipnowski, Sam 2222 2196 2351 USCF from 1997
                  Tayar, Jonathan 2293 2462 2344
                  Yuan, Michael 2227 2152 unr
                  Ng, Gary 2274 2234 2122
                  Morrison, Kyle 2265 2222 2232
                  Zuniga, Dante 2264 2354 2179
                  Tremblay, Rejean 2259 2246 2209
                  Ristovic, Nenad 2241 2252 2198
                  Wysocki, Anton 2228 unr
                  Dougherty, Michael 2229 2275 2149
                  Sapozhnikov, Roman 2224 2466 2332
                  Cooper, Aaron unr 2238 unr
                  Bogle, Bill 2203 2105 2058 USCF from 1992
                  Henry, Liam 2222 2321 2126
                  Gusev, Nikita 2219 2307 2152
                  Martchenko, Alex 2215 2400 2236
                  Itkin, David 2214 2146 2058
                  Kong, Dezheng 2212 2090 2062
                  Haessel, Dale 2204 2295 2166
                  Peng, David 2201 2328 2204
                  Song, Micheel 2188 2343 2174
                  DiDiodato, Robert 2196 unr 2006 USCF from 1986
                  McLaren, Brian 2184 2176 2163
                  Sohal, Tanraj 2068 2202 2108
                  Filipovich, David 2183 2212 2089
                  Chiku-Ratte, Oliver 2166 2098 2056
                  Patterson, Roger 2165 2127 2103
                  Cao, Jason 2152 2157 2038
                  Dzera, Victor 2149 2194 2130

                  Khashper, Arkady 2131 2075 2109
                  Moffat, Andrei 2126 2181 2104
                  Jung, Hans 2124 2284 2150
                  Husain, Imtiaz 2117 2134 2050
                  Kho, Jingle 2110 2100 1865
                  Bergeron, Pascal 2109 2030 2137
                  Fu, James 2105 2127 2019
                  Kapstan, Aron 2100 2068 2014
                  Paul Leblanc
                  Treasurer Chess Foundation of Canada

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                  • #39
                    Re: Which rating should we use?

                    I would cut down such a list to players who have played a minimum of "x" rated games in each system during the last "y" years.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Which rating should we use?

                      Originally posted by Larry Bevand View Post
                      What rating should an organizer use when determining sections and prizes that a player is eligible to play?
                      In Aurora we had no troubles only with CFC (99% players are locals from Ontario) and FIDE (occasionally somebody is visiting from overseas) ratings. We deal with USCF and FQE systems only after special requests - most of the time to move a player up a section.

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                      • #41
                        Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

                        What rating should an organizer use when determining sections and prizes that a player is eligible to play?.

                        As a late participant to this discussion, here is my grain of salt : IMO you should use the most credible rating someone has. And credibility is essentially determined by the number of games rated. For most players this means :

                        Quebec residents - use their FQE rating
                        Others Canadians - use their CFC rating
                        Foreign players - use the higher of their FIDE and National ratings.

                        Larry, your tournament specified permanent rating which means you would ignore provisional ratings. Not a bad idea, as long as you know what to do for a player who only has a provisional rating... In your case, you had the rule the higher of FQE, CFC and FIDE and that did the job.

                        No system is perfect. The FQE rule book allows for some arbiter discretion in rare situations (Art. 17 La cote à utiliser pour fins d'appariements). I am less familiar with the CFC rule book, but I would hope that it contains a similar provision.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

                          Originally posted by Bernard Ouimet View Post
                          The FQE rule book allows for some arbiter discretion in rare situations (Art. 17 La cote à utiliser pour fins d'appariements). I am less familiar with the CFC rule book, but I would hope that it contains a similar provision.
                          There is no CFC handbook aka rules anymore, only practice followed by CFC Execs. Most of chess matters were transferred to FIDE rules.

                          A relative matter from FIDE rules for Swiss pairings:
                          "Before the start of the tournament, a measure of the player’s strength is assigned to each player. The strength is usually represented by rating lists of the players. If one rating list is available for all participating players, then this rating list should be used.
                          It is advisable to check all ratings supplied by players. If no reliable rating is known for a player, the arbiters should make an estimation of it as accurately as possible."

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                          • #43
                            Re: Re : Re: Which rating should we use?

                            Originally posted by Paul Leblanc View Post
                            Here's some work I did in 2012. My conclusion at the time was that CFC and USCF were about at par and that CFC ratings were somewhat inflated vs FIDE, especially among the top players.

                            September 2012 USCF vs CFC vs FIDE
                            Name USCF CFC FIDE Comments
                            So, Wesley 2692 2724 2667
                            Sambuev, Bator unr 2689 2535
                            Bluvshtein, Mark 2539 2632 2590
                            Kovalyov unr 2644 2598
                            Noritsyn, Nikolay unr 2605 2461
                            Hansen 2479 2579 2502
                            Gerzhoy, Leonid 2539 2571 2461
                            Krnan, Tomas unr 2562 2415
                            Samsonkin, Artiom 2553 2396 1498p USCF from 2001
                            Quan, Zhe 2503 2642 2431 Last CFC game July 2009
                            Castellanos, Renier unr 2501 2491
                            Hambleton, Aman 2488 2293 1990p USCF from 2007
                            ...
                            Thanks for your work & post, Paul.

                            I was somewhat shocked at the (provisional) FIDE ratings circa 2012 of a couple of the top players you listed.
                            Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
                            Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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                            • #44
                              Re: Which rating should we use?

                              I had a chance to speak with the FQE Executive Director, Richard Bérubé at the Quebec Open on the weekend. He made a clear distinction between "in what section a player is eligible to play" and what rating is used for pairing and (I assume) prize purposes. Soo...for whatever reason, a player may not be eligible for an under 1800 section because he or she has a rating somewhere above that mark...when it comes to the rating used for pairing purposes, his or her FIDE rating is the one to use if the section is FIDE rated. Is this how our experts understand things?

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                              • #45
                                Re: Which rating should we use?

                                Hi Roger,

                                Thanks for your input!

                                The person in question is Singh, Jagpreet. He was allowed to play in the U1800 based on our rules. As I said in a previous post, I would have done things differently in hindsight :).

                                I guess what I am wondering is if our National body could adopt some rules that would cover all these situations (if that exists).

                                I would also like to thank Victor and others who took the time to make thoughtful contributions.

                                Hal Bond...do you have an opinion on this subject?

                                Larry

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