Score-based Prizes tournament

[Gary Hua]

Hi Chess Players,

1. What do you think if there is a chess tournament in GTA area or in Canada where the prize $$$ is based on score based and not on the place you achieve at the end of the tournament ?

2. Will you play in this kind of tournament ?


Score-based Prizes FAQ

What are the advantages of score-based prizes for players?

The prize for a given score is never shared. Therefore, your prize only depends on your performance. This is different than place-based prizes where things outside of the player's control affect how many people share a given prize.
The prizes do not depend on the number of entries in a section. So, a low turnout in a section does not lead to lower prizes like in a based-on prize tournament.
There is no need to wait for other games to finish to determine how much you have won. Once your game is over, you can receive your check.
Players will be motivated to play for the win. Since the total of the prizes is always higher when the result of a game is decisive, the incidence of quick draws is less.

What are the disadvantages of score-based prizes for players?
In a smaller section it is harder to win every game and earn the largest prize than it is to come in first. But a large section will require a near perfect score to come in first. So the difference for a large section is small. Note that the reason the prize for a perfect score is large is because it is hard. With place-based prizes, a small section would not be able to support a large prize.
You can't just draw games when everyone else draws games. If only place mattered, draws on all the top boards in a section would not really affect your prize chances.

[John Brown]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Can you give us a prize structure that you are thinking about. Is it like if I get 5 points I get "X" number of dollars and if there are 4 of us with 5 points we all get "X".
How do you calculate"X".
if say "X" is $300 and 4 have that score then you pay out $1200. Where does this money come from?

[Gary Hua]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Can you give us a prize structure that you are thinking about. Is it like if I get 5 points I get "X" number of dollars and if there are 4 of us with 5 points we all get "X".
How do you calculate"X".
if say "X" is $300 and 4 have that score then you pay out $1200. Where does this money come from?

Hi John thanks for your comments.appreciate that.

The prize structure will be attractive enough. It will be structure well enough to be a win win situation for player and organizer. It's guaranteed and the system is based on Swiss pairing system. No catch whatsoever.

If someone says no can you also let me know why no ? So that we can know the reasons so we can improve from there. Just trying to make things more attractive and interesting for chess players.

Gary

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

It would be helpful to give an example. How about assume 10 players in a 6-rounder, $60 entry fee 100% to prize fund.

1) $20 per win (30 games). Every player wins $20 per win, possibly draws not counting. If win all 6 get $120. Score 50%, win $60, your entry fee back.

2) use plus minus score:
6-0 wins it all? Or say $240.
5.5-.5 wins $200.
5-1 wins $160.
4.5-1.5 wins $120.
4-2 wins $80.
3.5-2.5 wins $40.
3-3 and below wins zero.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Does anyone remember the "Ber-Lee" ("Ber" for Jonathan Berry) prizes that were given out at Ottawa tournaments (probably the 80's and/or 90's)? It would go to the highest score which didn't win a place prize. I don't remember if there was a tiebreak so that the prize wasn't split.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

This is an interesting topic. I want to know more.
I have heard of them doing this in US tournaments and would love to try it in Canada.

But, before everyone gets the wrong idea, let's make one thing perfectly clear:
THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT INCREASE THE TOTAL PRIZE FUND.
It simply distributes the prizes differently.

Gary, please enlighten us further.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

6-0 wins it all? Or say $240.

Where monies would go if nobody wins with the perfect or other prize score?

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

The advantage to such a system is that as soon as you finish you know what prize you have won and don't have to wait around for the last game to finish to know what prize you are entitled to. Apparently it is very popular in the U.S.

[Vadim Tsypin]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

We had some exposure to an even more extreme variant, the so-called "Humble Pie format" popular in Rochester and other parts of Upstate NY.

Although USCF-rated, these tournaments don't abide by Swiss pairing rules. Rather, each round there are random pairings between opponents in the same score group, and you can end up facing a particular opponent more than once during the same event.

Players can enter and withdraw at any time, there is no notion of byes. Each game yields an instant prize. In a typical setup, an entry fee for one game is two tokens per side. A prize for a win is three tokens, a prize for a draw is one token; the rest of the fees collected goes to an organizer.

An interesting experience, especially when the tokens are not simply exchanged for money but, say, are physical carnival buttons that serve as currency during larger festivities.

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

They have these in Chicago. I've played in one or two. You get a prize if you get a plus score. I prefer place-based prizes. You have less of a chance of winning a prize but even the smallest prizes are larger than the entry fee.

[Gary Hua]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

This is an interesting topic. I want to know more.
I have heard of them doing this in US tournaments and would love to try it in Canada.

But, before everyone gets the wrong idea, let's make one thing perfectly clear:
THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT INCREASE THE TOTAL PRIZE FUND.
It simply distributes the prizes differently.

Gary, please enlighten us further.

This is an interesting topic. I want to know more.
I have heard of them doing this in US tournaments and would love to try it in Canada.

But, before everyone gets the wrong idea, let's make one thing perfectly clear:
THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT INCREASE THE TOTAL PRIZE FUND.
It simply distributes the prizes differently.

Gary, please enlighten us further.

Hi Everyone, lets give an example as below :

Weekend tournament over 5 rounds

1. Entry fee - $ 99

2. Winnings

2.1 5 points ( perfect score ) - $ 1,500
2.2 4.5 points - $ 700
2.3 4 points - $ 350
2.4 3.5 points - $ 150
2.5 3 points - $ 40

If you are at sole 4.5 points, you may win extra bonus of $ 200

The benefits of this tournament are as follows :

1. The prize money will not be shared. Currently, you may find your winnings shared by 6 players rendering your prize money to be very little left.
2. It is GUARANTEED and not depends on number of entries
3. Once you finish your game, potentially you can go home and not NOT have to wait for others to finish their games.
4. It encourages players to go for a in than a quick draw. Wins hurt organizer and draw makes an organizer smile.
5. Best part - If you know you can win 4 or 4.5 points or even 5 perfect points, your earnings could potentially be 4 to 15 times your entry fee.
6. You dont have to care what is the total prize fund at all as a player or how it is going to affect the organizer.

I hope I have answer most questions in this thread. Please let me know your thoughts after this explanations. Each sections winnings may be tweak a bit ( generally higher section will have a slightly better prize money ratio than the lower section ).

[John Brown]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Hi Gary;

how many players are you talking about taking part in this tournament? If only 10 players that is only $990. Where do you get the idea that organizers like to Guarantee to fork out money if there is a low turn out? Is this what the New York Open does?
Maybe you could organize the first tournament and see if your guaranteed prize fund draws the numbers so you can pay expenses and put some money in your pocket.
I don't think (unless you have a free site and the organizers are rich and can afford the loss) that this idea would work well at the lower end tournaments. Maybe at Canadian Open or a big event it may have some merit.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Hi Everyone, lets give an example as below :

Weekend tournament over 5 rounds

1. Entry fee - $ 99

2. Winnings

2.1 5 points ( perfect score ) - $ 1,500
2.2 4.5 points - $ 700
2.3 4 points - $ 350
2.4 3.5 points - $ 150
2.5 3 points - $ 40

If you are at sole 4.5 points, you may win extra bonus of $ 200

The benefits of this tournament are as follows :

1. The prize money will not be shared. Currently, you may find your winnings shared by 6 players rendering your prize money to be very little left.
2. It is GUARANTEED and not depends on number of entries
3. Once you finish your game, potentially you can go home and not NOT have to wait for others to finish their games.
4. It encourages players to go for a in than a quick draw. Wins hurt organizer and draw makes an organizer smile.
5. Best part - If you know you can win 4 or 4.5 points or even 5 perfect points, your earnings could potentially be 4 to 15 times your entry fee.
6. You dont have to care what is the total prize fund at all as a player or how it is going to affect the organizer.

I hope I have answer most questions in this thread. Please let me know your thoughts after this explanations. Each sections winnings may be tweak a bit ( generally higher section will have a slightly better prize money ratio than the lower section ).

I'm not sure how you calculated the prize payouts, but this seems rather risky for the organizer. I suggest running some sort of Monte Carlo simulation (if you haven't done so already) and see what the average and the spread of potential payouts would be then pay something like 80% of the average, even after deducting other expenses, to build in a margin of safety.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

I'm not sure how you calculated the prize payouts, but this seems rather risky for the organizer. I suggest running some sort of Monte Carlo simulation (if you haven't done so already) and see what the average and the spread of potential payouts would be then pay something like 80% of the average, even after deducting other expenses, to build in a margin of safety.

I did some estimation for Summer Open but scaled Gary's prizes by some factor (smaller entry fee, organizational costs etc). If Gary or other would ask for a different scale factor, I can change easily.

U900					
		5			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	300			
4.5	700	140	1	400	400
4	350	70	4	250	100
3.5	150	30	2	150	-
3	40	8	8	-	-
					
	Total	548	544	800

U1600					
		5			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	300			
4.5	700	140	1	400	400
4	350	70	0	250	-
3.5	150	30	5	150	80
3	40	8	6	-	-
					
	Total	548	338	800

U2000					
		4			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	375			
4.5	700	175	0		
4	350	88	2	500	400
3.5	150	38	4	300	50
3	40	10	4	200	
					
	Total	685	365	1000

Open					
		3			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	500			
4.5	700	233	0		
4	350	117	1	800	800
3.5	150	50	3	500	266.6666667
3	40	13	5	300	-
					
	Total	913	333	1600

Only a perfect-score player would get a similar amount as a "normal" winner (maybe a "clear winner" award would compensate that). Only the benefit for the smallest score players who get some change. Seems that the organizer in most cases are in a plus (second number in total is the total payout)

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Where monies would go if nobody wins with the perfect or other prize score?

If a player doesn't win their last round game, and thus his opponent doesn't lose, they both score 5.5 - .5 rather than 6-0 and 5-1, so it looks the same.
But doing a model it seems that the unlikely perfect score takes money out of the prize pool. The win minus loss model is not a closed system as the 50% group has wins without prizes. There is left over money.

Looking at the Maryland FAQ website they calculate higher amounts for the top section to take into account the higher number of draws.