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"... in the British Chess Magazine in January of 1991, Dr. John Nunn wrote an article called “The Decline of British Chess” and he explained the reasons for it. It was very simple and logical. In order to thrive as a chess nation, you have to have professional players. In order to have professional players you need to have tournaments and if you don’t have enough tournaments than basically you are stuffed!"
Is this correct? A professional has to make money, somehow, but tournament prizes hardly make a decent living wage. As far as I guess, most professionals make more on teaching/writing/broadcasting/appearance fees.
I wonder, does John Nunn's explanation apply to Canadian chess?
We did better in the last Olympiad than we've ever done before. The Varennes tournament had about 215 players and what I hear about scholastic chess from Larry seems to indicate it is doing rather well. It all depends on your definition of decline, I guess....
We did better in the last Olympiad than we've ever done before. The Varennes tournament had about 215 players and what I hear about scholastic chess from Larry seems to indicate it is doing rather well. It all depends on your definition of decline, I guess....
Yes, this discussion has to revolve around the definitions. Another important definition is the goals for "chess in Canada".
If the measure is success in the Olympiad, then we are moving forward.
If, on another hand, the goal is CFC members and service to members, the picture is less clear.
Several top Canadian players (most recently Eric Hansen) have made it clear that being a professional chess player in Canada is almost impossible; some other top players supplement their income by winning weekend Swiss tournaments, teaching juniors or others etc. Playing full time as a professional likely involves living in Europe or elsewhere (not in Canada or U.S.) ...
I was wondering more about Nunn's prescription, and its flip side, that more (top level?) tournaments would lead to more chess professionals. Put like that, it seems a bit like chicken-and-egg. But do professionals - Bator, for instance - rely mostly on tournament prizes. It seems a precarious way to make a living.
I was wondering more about Nunn's prescription, and its flip side, that more (top level?) tournaments would lead to more chess professionals. Put like that, it seems a bit like chicken-and-egg. But do professionals - Bator, for instance - rely mostly on tournament prizes. It seems a precarious way to make a living.
Perhaps Bator may weigh in with some facts, but I would have to speculate that teaching chess is the largest part of the pie. Given the time commitment required for weekend Swisses, unless they have large prizes for places 1 through (say) 3, they would have to be less lucrative than spending much of that time teaching. I don't know how much chess lessons cost these days, but since lessons can be conducted via Skype (for example) the need for face to face time has to be decreased (or even eliminated entirely) and therefore there might be a multi level pricing matrix (Skype is high cost, personal analysis + suggestions may be less than skype; setting homework - puzzles, request for student analysis and subsequent marking may be next on the list etc.)
If we held more top level tournaments in Canada would that grow the number of Canadian top players or would it simply provide an opportunity for foreign GMs/IMs to visit and perhaps cash in? Tournaments would have to be structured to balance foreign participation with upcoming juniors etc. The Calgary tournaments come to mind in that regard.
At the moment, the CFC can barely find organizers/sponsors/venues for major events like Canadian Closed etc...
If we held more top level tournaments in Canada would that grow the number of Canadian top players or would it simply provide an opportunity for foreign GMs/IMs to visit and perhaps cash in? Tournaments would have to be structured to balance foreign participation with upcoming juniors etc.
Definitely more tournaments would bring more players, and then some of them would become GMs. However, the organization of the higher level tournaments is quite different from weekend opens.
When I mentioned to the new CMA Regional Director that Ottawa Scholastics Grand Prix event #2 overlaps with RA Winter Open she told me that RA tournaments are for adults and CMA tournaments are for kids only.
Probably she doesn't know that 10+ kids who play at Ottawa CMA tournaments also play at RA and they all have higher CFC than CMA ratings. I wonder how & why?
Here is a quick example of players from the last CMA tournament:
Matthew Zhu CMA 1251 CFC 1482
Alex Stopic CMA 1167 CFC 1433
Joshua Porras CMA 1143 CFC 1501
Vincent Qin CMA 1041 CFC 1396
Oswin Ning CMA 999 CFC 1323
Alwin Ning CMA 1047 CFC 1537
I spoke to some of kids and they all find CAM tournaments not challenging enough. They all preferred RA tournaments.
And, by the way, kids were disappointed that only first place won medal. Before, the first 3 places won medals and kids were much happier and much more motivated.
I don't know how much medals cost but they are something kids are proud of.
At the moment, the CFC can barely find organizers/sponsors/venues for major events like Canadian Closed etc...
Long ago, 3-time World Champion Mikhail Botvinnik noted in an introductory essay in one of his books that chess requires both organizers and players to be successful. Kerry's remark quoted above is, so far, the only observation in this thread that acknowledges this important and fundamental fact. It really seems to me like people still don't get this.
So, a discussion of how to encourage organizers and TDs, and develop existing ones, might be a helpful addition here.
For example, Victoria BC is very well organized for chess. Some of their TDs and/or organizers have even gone over to the mainland to "help" Vancouver chess in recent years. A few years ago they produced an under-12 World Champion. And so on.
Of course we can always grouse like Nigel Short does. He IS entertaining. But I prefer reading and listening to the Susan Polgars of the world.
Dogs will bark, but the caravan of chess moves on.
It has long been my view that encouraging and developing organizers/TDs would solve most issues with (adult) Canadian Chess.
It starts at the top.
As president of the EOCA I was the first president in Canada to bring in what I thought at the time as an incentive for growth and respect. Respect of the TD/Org themselves, in terms of cash in their pocket for hard work done ... and growth for organized chess itself, in terms of a huge increase in the numbers of participants
I called it ... TD/Org remuneration. TD/Orgs should be remunerated no less than 5ive dollars per entrant. So, the incentive for a TD/Org to promote the tournament is there:
More participants = More cash in their pocket. 100 player weekend tournament = $500 in their pocket!
Not too shabby ... especially when compared to the burnt out volunteer of altruism/socialism ...ugh!
CMA is a success because the gig pays $$$.
.
Last edited by Neil Frarey; Monday, 6th November, 2017, 09:11 PM.
Players can't make money here. Organizers lose money when they organize a tournament.
If you were to pay organizers to run tournaments, this would help. An organizer and TD like Hal Bond, isn't traveling to other countries out of the goodness of his heart.
He gets paid to do so. The problem with weekend tournaments is organizers pay out of their own pocket for certain amenities to entice players to play. If the participation number is low, the prize fund takes a hit.
Then players won't play in future events because of a compromised prize fund.
Pay and train organizers a reasonable sum and help stimulate the prize funds.
Otherwise, good organizers and TD's will stop doing just that and down the rabbit hole we go.
Respect of the TD/Org themselves, in terms of cash in their pocket for hard work done ... and growth for organized chess itself, in terms of a huge increase in the numbers of participants
I called it ... TD/Org remuneration. TD/Orgs should be remunerated no less than 5ive dollars per entrant. So, the incentive for a TD/Org to promote the tournament is there
More participants = More cash in their pocket. 100 player weekend tournament = $500 in their pocket!
Not too shabby ... especially when compared to the burnt out volunteer of altruism/socialism ...ugh!
I don't share your anti-socialist prejudice here. But there's a bigger point. I used to play chess in Winnipeg. In fact, Winnipeg was really where I began my serious chess career at the late age of 34. And I'm very grateful to the Winnipeg chess community. There was a real chess culture. This has nothing to do with money. It has to do with an understanding of chess as a kind of civilizational mission.
Musicians love music, dancers love dance. Chess players love chess. And you share your affection for the art because, ultimately, you think it makes you a better human being. This is what some of us mean by chess culture.
Anyway, I was commenting about Winnipeg. And I remember, that chess culture, and we had a tournament director, whose name is not important, who was a very good player and also a competent TD. He made the money argument that you are making. And I have to say, his argument fell on deaf ears. For him, it was about the money. For all the others, it wasn't. And I don't think he ever understood that.
These money arguments are shallow, and partly true, but missing the point.
Of course I agree wish the idea to pay TDs and organizers as best we can. But that's not it. We are custodians of a glorious, noble game, like temporary stewarts of something priceless. We need to convey this greatness of our game. And the way that we do that is that we open people's eyes to chess culture, a culture that is 1,500 years old, and, I rather expect, will last another 1,500 years. We need to be humble.
CMA is a success because the gig pays $$$.
Agreed. And when the players get older, then what? Isn't this actually a problem in Canada ... the way juniors, mostly, disappear from adult competitive chess?
Dogs will bark, but the caravan of chess moves on.
Costs to run tournaments are way up and Organizers cannot really find cheap venues to run big events. If the organizers do not have a great media /promotion team that can drum up sponsors then the events are doomed to fail.
Most sponsors ask the big question "What's in it for me?"
Ideal sponsors would be those who cater to Chess players quirks. In the past chess players smoked at the tables but I never saw a cigarette company sponsoring an event.
Lately we have coffee drinkers but where is the Starbucks or Tim Horton's kiosk at chess events?
(Chess players are CHEAP) they don't patronize their own events.
I recall a group who thought buying a chess building for chess only was the way to go. But it failed because of lack of chess player support.
Other venues like the Primrose Hotel. The organizer asked the chess players to buy from the hotel concessions to help keep the rates down. Chess players brought in outside food
and left their garbage lying around. Thus rates went up and another site was lost.
We used to have MacDonald Block site but thanks to some people who messed up the bathrooms we lost that site.
I believe chess players do not respect the venues or organizers. They just complain and demand too much.
The decline of Canadian Chess has been caused by the players themselves.
Last edited by John Brown; Tuesday, 7th November, 2017, 06:34 AM.
Reason: spelling
The problem with weekend tournaments is organizers pay out of their own pocket for certain amenities to entice players to play.
Organizers should NEVER pay for tournament costs out of their own pockets.
John & John - you guys run a great weekend tournament in Niagara Falls every spring.
Count me in again for 2018, my cheque is in the mail.
Please pay yourselves whatever you feel is appropriate. No need to tell us, no need to feel guilty.
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The decline of Canadian chess?
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