The decline of Canadian chess?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Paul, I think you are getting carried away. You realise that the menu price of restaurant food includes the cost of wages for the waiter, the kitchen staff, the manager, etc.

Of course tournament staff should be paid, something. I doubt we can pay a living wage, even minimum wage is (or soon will be) $15 per hour. Not to mention double time on Sundays.

I knew somebody would be silly enough to take my comparison to mean I'm trying to equate the restaurant business to the chess tournament "business".

No one would work as a waiter / waitress if the "wages" they were paid from the restaurant owners were their only income. They DEPEND ON earning tips on top of wages. Wait staff wages are (legally) BELOW the normal minimum wage, although I know some places are experimenting with doing away with tips and paying higher wages. But that model takes away the right of the consumer to respond to bad service with little or no tip. So it's a bad model imo. The tipping model is more responsive to the consumer, and I'm saying that is the model chess tournament organizers should use if they want some renumeration for their services.

Bob's insistence on being paid up front is putting the emphasis where it doesn't belong when it comes to chess tournaments. It's the first step in a slippery slope leading to Neil Frarey's full "chess as a business" concept which is doomed to failure. The Millionaire Chess debacle should teach everyone that chess tournament organizing can never be a normal business -- without any changes to chess, that is.

Roger Patterson's post in this thread sets the record straight on this matter. The one thing I would say to Roger is that it is always possible for someone like Neil to find an illegal immigrant to run the business for 1/10th the cost that Roger outlined. That is the Trump methodology. And what you would eventually end up with are shady characters being paid a pauper's sum to run tournaments in church basements, doing whatever they can to cut costs, much the same as the present situation except that we currently don't have (afaik and with one notable exception) shady characters doing the organizing.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

The players ARE getting a chess tournament.
I am NOT asking them to pay extra. Entry fee remains the same.
As a player, I am saying I am okay with TD fees.
If they choose not to take a TD fee, I am okay with that.
Sounds kinda reasonable to me.
Do you expect TD/organizer to work for free? Are you Donald Trump?

My God, you should be a politician! "Entry fee remains the same", what an insult to everyone's intelligence! The entry fee would go DOWN if you weren't paying yourself and the prizes went down by $200 as you described.

Where did I say anything about working for free? I said LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES how much to pay you! And it isn't "begging for quarters" as your politico-speak puts it. Just like the musician, everyone knows you are there providing a service, and the open donation case is the way for them to pay IF THEY SO CHOOSE. Begging would be sleeping on the sidewalk with a tin cup, not providing any service at all.

You are insisting on having the ORGANIZER decide what their worth is, before the tournament even begins. I am saying let the PLAYERS decide as the tournament is going on or finishing up. You tell me what is more democratic.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

The players ARE getting a chess tournament.
I am NOT asking them to pay extra. Entry fee remains the same.
As a player, I am saying I am okay with TD fees.
If they choose not to take a TD fee, I am okay with that.
Sounds kinda reasonable to me.
Do you expect TD/organizer to work for free? Are you Donald Trump?

Why are you arguing with a troll?

Trump is far more handsome than Paul Bonham.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

My God, you should be a politician! "Entry fee remains the same", what an insult to everyone's intelligence! The entry fee would go DOWN if you weren't paying yourself and the prizes went down by $200 as you described.

Where did I say anything about working for free? I said LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES how much to pay you! And it isn't "begging for quarters" as your politico-speak puts it. Just like the musician, everyone knows you are there providing a service, and the open donation case is the way for them to pay IF THEY SO CHOOSE. Begging would be sleeping on the sidewalk with a tin cup, not providing any service at all.

You are insisting on having the ORGANIZER decide what their worth is, before the tournament even begins. I am saying let the PLAYERS decide as the tournament is going on or finishing up. You tell me what is more democratic.

in·cen·tive

inˈsen(t)iv/
noun
noun: incentive; plural noun: incentives

a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something.

synonyms: inducement, motivation, motive, reason, stimulus, stimulant, spur, impetus

a payment or concession to stimulate greater output or investment.

*****

TD/Org remuneration goes far far beyond the ignorance of the Paul Bonhams of our world. Not mention their persistent and argumentative lack of vision ...sigh. But hey, I don't expect that kind to understand such a fundamental principle.

With the incentive of the TD/Org remuneration, PROMOTING the chess tournament now becomes just as ... beneficial ... to organized chess as the tournament itself!

More participants = More remuneration!!!

And in the bargain organized chess in Canada is the long term beneficiary!

[John Brown]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Paul you are missing the biggest point of the advertising clause " Prizes based on entries less expenses."
I could base my prize fund as 20%of entries and use the rest as expenses and my statement is that after expenses 20% is paid out.
If more players would show up instead of complaining this and that. Organizers could probably pay out big cash. But because chess players are cheap, complainers and wanting everything their way. We organizers say boo who. Hand you a hankie and pay out what is available after expenses.
Chess players have to support events if they want better rewards. No support no rewards.
Its basic math if you want more slices you gotta pay for more pies. Less pies less slices.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Paul you are missing the biggest point of the advertising clause " Prizes based on entries less expenses."
I could base my prize fund as 20%of entries and use the rest as expenses and my statement is that after expenses 20% is paid out.
If more players would show up instead of complaining this and that. Organizers could probably pay out big cash. But because chess players are cheap, complainers and wanting everything their way. We organizers say boo who. Hand you a hankie and pay out what is available after expenses.
Chess players have to support events if they want better rewards. No support no rewards.
Its basic math if you want more slices you gotta pay for more pies. Less pies less slices.

None of what I've been saying here has had to do with getting more chess players out to events.

For all anyone knows, organizers have been paying themselves all along and including that as "expenses". How many tournaments show the players an itemized list of all event expenses? Not all, maybe even not very many do it.

My suggestion is simply that organizers let the players decide how much their services are worth using the Busker Business Model. I get the impression that Bob Gillanders must think if he does that, he'll get nothing or next to nothing every time. I guess he doesn't have a very good opinion of the players that come to his events, with respect to their appreciation of his efforts. Would they really all look at an open donation case and not give anything?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

in·cen·tive

inˈsen(t)iv/
noun
noun: incentive; plural noun: incentives

a thing that motivates or encourages one to do something.

synonyms: inducement, motivation, motive, reason, stimulus, stimulant, spur, impetus

a payment or concession to stimulate greater output or investment.

*****

TD/Org remuneration goes far far beyond the ignorance of the Paul Bonhams of our world. Not mention their persistent and argumentative lack of vision ...sigh. But hey, I don't expect that kind to understand such a fundamental principle.

With the incentive of the TD/Org remuneration, PROMOTING the chess tournament now becomes just as ... beneficial ... to organized chess as the tournament itself!

More participants = More remuneration!!!

And in the bargain organized chess in Canada is the long term beneficiary!

Roger Patterson must be kicking himself.... all those years of organizing tournaments, and if he had only paid himself more, he would have been more "incentivized" to get more players out to his events, and by now his events would be 10 times as big! LOL!!!!

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

None of what I've been saying here has had to do with getting more chess players out to events.

For all anyone knows, organizers have been paying themselves all along and including that as "expenses". How many tournaments show the players an itemized list of all event expenses? Not all, maybe even not very many do it.

My suggestion is simply that organizers let the players decide how much their services are worth using the Busker Business Model. I get the impression that Bob Gillanders must think if he does that, he'll get nothing or next to nothing every time. I guess he doesn't have a very good opinion of the players that come to his events, with respect to their appreciation of his efforts. Would they really all look at an open donation case and not give anything?

Can I hire you to safeguard the basket? Payment will be in the cup LOL

[Gordon Gooding]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Costs to run tournaments are way up and Organizers cannot really find cheap venues to run big events. If the organizers do not have a great media /promotion team that can drum up sponsors then the events are doomed to fail.
Most sponsors ask the big question "What's in it for me?"
Ideal sponsors would be those who cater to Chess players quirks. In the past chess players smoked at the tables but I never saw a cigarette company sponsoring an event.
Lately we have coffee drinkers but where is the Starbucks or Tim Horton's kiosk at chess events?

(Chess players are CHEAP) they don't patronize their own events.
I recall a group who thought buying a chess building for chess only was the way to go. But it failed because of lack of chess player support.
Other venues like the Primrose Hotel. The organizer asked the chess players to buy from the hotel concessions to help keep the rates down. Chess players brought in outside food
and left their garbage lying around. Thus rates went up and another site was lost.
We used to have MacDonald Block site but thanks to some people who messed up the bathrooms we lost that site.
I believe chess players do not respect the venues or organizers. They just complain and demand too much.
The decline of Canadian Chess has been caused by the players themselves.

i understand you pain as an organizer but you shouldnt throw out the entire barrel of apples because of one or two (or a few) cheap ones. yes it is hard to find a good spot, harder to keep it it seems. Most players who dont want the hassle and risk of running a tourney really dont understand it so they wouldnt appreciate it when somebody else does it. Talk is cheap,action is more valuable. My sincere thnx to all organizers who tough it out for chess! I didn't know how 'glorious' it is to be an organizer until I started doing it. I have great respect for doers and those willing to try, not so much for those who only talk.

[Gordon Gooding]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

None of what I've been saying here has had to do with getting more chess players out to events.

For all anyone knows, organizers have been paying themselves all along and including that as "expenses". How many tournaments show the players an itemized list of all event expenses? Not all, maybe even not very many do it.

My suggestion is simply that organizers let the players decide how much their services are worth using the Busker Business Model. I get the impression that Bob Gillanders must think if he does that, he'll get nothing or next to nothing every time. I guess he doesn't have a very good opinion of the players that come to his events, with respect to their appreciation of his efforts. Would they really all look at an open donation case and not give anything?

Are you insane? When was the last time you gave a tip to a busker, a guy doing chalk art on the sidewalk? Did you give every single time you saw one? Odds are "Ummm, No".

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Chess is rising in the York region. I think there was a dip some years ago when Pelts stopped his school. Now several other schools filled the gap. From time to time you can read announcements of their tournaments here too.
With the Aurora chess club we are in our 6th year. Still growing and trying various aspects to attract players. This season we have 75 members. Working hard too on 3 weekend tournaments a year. The last two tournaments were really amazing with record-beating numbers of players. Hope to keep the pace with the demand.

While I don't much expect from the national federation to do on the regional scale, though there is a short list:
* a regular magazine. I just can not say to a potential member you'll get a magazine (cough cough, after a year); It also promotes tournaments.
* simplified membership payment and quick update on the status - as the organizer I really don't want to chase those who need renewals.

BTW, Swiss-Manager has a new feature for the organizers - it shows the CFC expiry day. Still some work need to be done to have it perfectly. Also, now not only province is shown but a city/town too. Sorry, if you don't like that. However I like to know how far players are traveling :)

[Roger Patterson]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Also, now not only province is shown but a city/town too. Sorry, if you don't like that. However I like to know how far players are traveling :)

There are other reasons to want to know. Some cities have a tourism promotion budget for events that bring people in from out of town. A year or two ago, the city of Richmond approached us - they have such a program for provincial championships and will contribute based on number of expected room nights brought in. Sadly, we weren't bringing in enough (needed 50) but the program is there.

All of which is to say, having (and keeping previous year's) a pre-registration list that shows player home town can be potentially useful as well as intrinsically interesting.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

There are other reasons to want to know. Some cities have a tourism promotion budget for events that bring people in from out of town. A year or two ago, the city of Richmond approached us - they have such a program for provincial championships and will contribute based on number of expected room nights brought in. Sadly, we weren't bringing in enough (needed 50) but the program is there.

All of which is to say, having (and keeping previous year's) a pre-registration list that shows player home town can be potentially useful as well as intrinsically interesting.

The information was always available through the cfc database just longer and other software needed. Though, the SwissManager programmer was collaborative and he did what he did. Maybe improvements will come later.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Roger Patterson must be kicking himself.... all those years of organizing tournaments, and if he had only paid himself more, he would have been more "incentivized" to get more players out to his events, and by now his events would be 10 times as big! LOL!!!!

And in response to Rog >>>

This is absolutely right.

That being said, when I was a student, the possibility of making a few hundred dollars for TD'ing a chess tournament (during which I would also have plenty of downtime to get some school work done) might have been a strong incentive to me. And it would have provided valuable experience that I could carry into the working world.

So Neil's idea is not a bad one. But it's only going to appeal to someone who's already interested in chess. And it would still require a decent amount of volunteer support, since I wouldn't expect a broke student to pay the deposit for the tournament venue, purchase a bunch of clocks and sets, collect and hold tournament entry fees in trust, etc. etc.

And how much more so to someone laid off from work and given the opportunity to some grab some much needed $$$ ???

Further?

Announced earlier by Drkulec ... CFC will run a slight deficit this year.

Keep the faith Paul Bonham, keep the faith.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Are you insane? When was the last time you gave a tip to a busker, a guy doing chalk art on the sidewalk? Did you give every single time you saw one? Odds are "Ummm, No".

Sounds like you need to get out more!

TTC makes prospective subway buskers audition for a 3-year license (last I checked). Very competitive! For the winners, it is a path to making a living from music. I was involved in the music industry in Toronto (I videotaped local bands as a part-time gig), and I know several people who have done busking, some of them for years. Results vary with talent, obviously, which is part of what makes the model work.

Do you want bad organizers? Neil Frarey says he can offer chess organizer "jobs" to people who are unemployed. In his vision, these people are going to be "incentivized" to bring in more people to the events and the rising tide will lift all boats. You are most welcome to believe that if you want to.

I've made my suggestion to organizers regarding remuneration, it's up to them what to do with it, and I really do not care if they try it or not. I have other things much bigger going on, in the sense of how much the world of organized chess is going to be affected.