Do we have an elephant in the room?

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  • Do we have an elephant in the room?

    FIDE GM norm application
    https://ratings.fide.com/title_appli...M&pb=53&reff=0

    2nd GM norm tournament (round robin in Serbia - no players over 2450)
    https://ratings.fide.com/view_source.phtml?code=173867

    3nd GM norm tournament (round robin in Serbia - no players over 2450 and only 1 player over 2500)
    https://ratings.fide.com/view_source.phtml?code=183208

    Have a look at his last 15 tournaments:
    1 Open tournament in Canada
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-01-01

    3 RR tournaments in Serbia with the same arbiter and organizer
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-02-01

    2 RR tournaments in Serbia with the same arbiter and organizer
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-03-01

    2 RR tournaments in Serbia with the same arbiter and organizer
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-05-01

    1 Open tournament in Canada
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-06-01

    1 Open tournament in Canada
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-08-01

    1 Open tournament in Canada
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-11-01

    2 RR tournaments in Serbia with the same arbiter and organizer
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2019-02-01

    2 RR tournaments in Serbia with the same arbiter and organizer
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2019-03-01

    It looks like he found an easy path to become a GM. In 125 games: 2 wins against a 2515 GM, 1 win against a 2490 FM and 1 win against a 2467 IM
    The 2515 player (GM Vladimir Dobrov) lost 42 FIDE points in the same round robin tournaments he lost the 2 games and is now rated 2478
    https://ratings.fide.com/individual_...iod=2018-05-01

    Last edited by Rene Preotu; Thursday, 21st March, 2019, 08:40 PM.

  • #2
    Hi,


    A - I've read different accounts on some of these Eastern European tournaments.

    - Play local, declining, over-the-hill GMs and IMs who may have inflated ratings (compared to their current strength as they decline, not due to other malpractice) and score some easy points.
    - These guys are tough! They need to make a living and they're in parts of the world where chess professionals are no longer receiving government support or where being a chess professional is simply hard hustling. These guys depend on results too, and there's no easy game (yes I've read this).
    - Many people go to some of these thinking they're easy norms, come back empty-handed. When I first read about the Hungary First-Saturdays on chessbase, the report listed a one Magnus Carlsen as someone who tried and failed (as a kid of course, way back when) to get a norm.
    - Other aspects of these tournaments in the past have been subject to controversy. Such as boarding, local connections and strange expectations. Off-the-chessboard stuff.

    B - I've witnessed and played in tournaments in Southern Europe.

    - Played in tournaments in islands in Greece (twice) and in Pyrenees mountains in Spain. These are tourist spots. I was there on "chesscation", not looking for norms, but made some observations.
    - I don't get the sense that either of these 3 locations were places where people think norms are easy.
    - I saw several 2500+ players of all ages, including local veterans, playing and significantly under-performing as per their ratings. Many were there with their (sometimes also chess player) spouses and children, clearly more on beach (Greece) or hiking (Spain) vacations more than for the actual chess. Top players got conditions with paid accommodations. That doesn't mean they weren't at the board fighting!
    - Very few norms were actually obtained.

    C - Other people's accounts, on places similar to the ones I described, where people go there more to be on vacation than to play chess, people have the idea that norms are easier there.
    I guess nobody comes to Canada in attempt to get norms, though they do happen and are not unheard of.

    ---

    We either all know, or we all have the illusion that, gaining FIDE rating in Canada is tough, compared to some other places. Lets all move to China or Russia instead. Is it easier there?
    Taking into account that they have some 2500+ untitled players, maybe rating comes easy. Is it just a flag issue? Just south of the border, I remember IM Bindi Cheng missing out on a GM norm because his 2600+ performance was discredited on account of having played insufficient flags. That truly burns.

    So ... until we get our own uncle Rex Sinquefield, what are our options?
    1 - We can go to Europe, a scene rich in chess events in large numbers and flags, short distances to travel, and attempt norms there.
    2 - If we let Quebec go, and we live in the NorthEastern part of the continent, we just increased our number of flags from 2 to 3.

    So... if I am an IM looking for norms... why would I go to Indonesia or Philippines, with a ton of underrated players and not enough flags floating around for me to get my norms? Why would I go to Siberia? China? Even USA and South America are not as impressive as we may think they might be. I can find the flags in USA (usually, not always) and I can opt to play 9 Rounds in 5 days. Sounds like a dream norm tournament.

    Most titled players who move to North America change their federations. This is great for Canada and the USA, yet terrible for meeting flag requirements for other local players to have a shot at norms.

    Is a GM title worth more if it's from Ukraine than if it is from sunny-side seniors' village Spain? Okay... but if I am an IM wanting a GM title, I might take these things into consideration.


    If there's actually abuse, illegal malpractice by organizers, players throwing games, players buying games, in whatever tournaments out there, then that's wrong. Please shed some light.


    Alex Ferreira

    Comment


    • #3
      The norm tournaments held in Montreal recently usually resolve the "flag" issue by recruiting high-rated foreign students studying in Canada, or by importing Cubans (they will normally play for less than Americans).

      Michael Yip moved from Canada to Budapest, and he has reported in the past on the First Saturday tournaments - their good and bad points.

      Comment


      • #4
        Somewhat ironically First Saturday was the main reason I chose to move to Budapest around 10 years ago. I was somewhat naive when I arrived but slowly I have realized some of what goes on. I have not bothered even to watch any FS tournament as it just is not worth even making a minimal effort to. These RRs offer what amount to paper norms, the absolute minimum an organizer can get away with without breaking any FIDE rules. The IM and GM titles are severely devalued and I don't really care what title someone has here as active Hungarian players are well established in the Team Ch and it is clear who is strong and who is not. The chess culture is different here(Hungary). I cannot explain every part of it as I do not speak Hungarian(still!) and so do not grasp the chess politics here. When Hungarian players get titles IM/GM there is no big fanfare, it is just normal for a talented hard working player to make upward progress until something stops them. My team produced a new GM (Mihok,Olivier) a while ago, it was barely news. It was routine. In all the time I have lived here, not one Hungarian player or organizer(Non-FS) has ever recommended that I play in FS events. It is not a part of normal Hungarian chess life. It is tourist chess, real Hungarian chess is the Team Ch and the many leagues.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Rene Preotu View Post
          ...

          It looks like he found an easy path to become a GM. ...
          You publicly belittle Mr. Yang's accomplishment and at the same time call into question his integrity?? Wow!
          "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
          "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
          "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey

          Comment


          • #6
            There are 1,600 GMs in the world. We only have 16. Has the title itself been watered down? They all have been coached more, know more, play more, than GMs of yore.

            Some GMs visiting our Opens note our strong IMs that would probably be GMs if we were in Europe. Already GM norms to Gerzhoy, Noritsyn, Porper, and Zugic (http://www.canadianchess.info). Is it better to send our IMs on an European tour, or bring GMs here? Do they first need GM training matches?

            Sure, the chess tour players are wealthy but what about the lower 1,500, there are around 150 active GMs rated below 2400. What rewards does one get for being a GM? Free entry fee? Higher pay as a chess teacher? Several of our GMs like Bluvshtein and Charbonneau have moved on to making money in a normal world job.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Rene Preotu View Post
              It looks like he found an easy path to become a GM.
              Rene, you, seems, are just frustrated about the fact. What is your suggestion to improve a path?

              Many years ago one Canadian player got an IM title and there were suspicions that it was obtained without playing but without solid evidences. The CFC could not do anything at that time and FIDE was not collaborating. Later the requirement for the minimum CFC rating was set for FIDE title applications, irc.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sounds like something the parents of a different Grandmaster would post :)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Rene,

                  I understand both sides of the argument. Being a 2100 FIDE player myself, I can only imagine the work Razvan put in to become 2500 GM and one of the top players in Canada. Razvan played in many big tournaments that are tough (World Open, Canadian Open, World Youth, etc.), so having this process "made easier" certainly feels a bit unfair.

                  But at the same time Kaiqi didn't do anything wrong, he wanted to become a GM and he accomplished his goal. Congrats to him! I don't think calling out another player like this is a good idea.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some time ago, a Canadian got a norm in a Canadian Swiss event with the help of the TD who provided him with strong enough opposition to get the norm. With normal pairings, some opponents would have been too weak to allow for a norm.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

                      You publicly belittle Mr. Yang's accomplishment and at the same time call into question his integrity?? Wow!
                      I haven’t followed Chesstalk for a while so I was surprised to see that we have a new GM in Canada and, after a month from his achievement, only 3 people posted here. No CFC officials, no organizers, no title players or other people who are involved in the Canadian chess. This made me curious and I looked at his norm application and his 2018-2019 tournaments. I presented my findings and posted them on Chesstalk with one statement It looks like he found an easy path to become a GM

                      Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post


                      Rene, you, seems, are just frustrated about the fact. What is your suggestion to improve a path?
                      I’m not frustrated about this fact and I don’t have any suggestions for you.

                      Originally posted by Matthew Nicholson View Post
                      Sounds like something the parents of a different Grandmaster would post :)
                      Originally posted by Joshua Guo View Post
                      Being a 2100 FIDE player myself, I can only imagine the work Razvan put in to become 2500 GM and one of the top players in Canada. Razvan played in many big tournaments that are tough (World Open, Canadian Open, World Youth, etc.), so having this process "made easier" certainly feels a bit unfair.

                      This has nothing to do with Razvan so please don’t get him involved.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

                        You publicly belittle Mr. Yang's accomplishment and at the same time call into question his integrity?? Wow!
                        Peter, do you think that chess community will look at Mr Yang's GM title the same way they look at Eric, Razvan or Aman's titles? Maybe you know, maybe you don't, but believe me when I say that he will not be shown same respect as the one I just mention and that will last for ever or until Mr. Yang will show way more GM level results than what it takes to get 3 GM norms.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Andrei Botez View Post

                          Peter, do you think that chess community will look at Mr Yang's GM title the same way they look at Eric, Razvan or Aman's titles? Maybe you know, maybe you don't, but believe me when I say that he will not be shown same respect as the one I just mention and that will last for ever or until Mr. Yang will show way more GM level results than what it takes to get 3 GM norms.
                          Here's what I said to Rene:

                          Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

                          You publicly belittle Mr. Yang's accomplishment and at the same time call into question his integrity?? Wow!
                          Hi Andrei. From my perspective it's irrelevant whether some people will look down their noses at what Mr. Yang accomplished. The point I tried to make to Rene (and obviously I didn't do a very good job since he didn't get it and apparently neither do you) is that surely Mr. Yang doesn't deserve to be PUBLICLY belittled for the **crime** of satisfying FIDE's requirements for the GM title. There are snobbish and condescending people in every walk of life. But how does that justify calling somebody out in a public forum simply for meeting requirements that are imposed on everyone; even Razvan, Eric, and Aman? If Rene feels that he has a legitimate concern about some people "...(finding) an easy path to become a GM," and if he feels that he has some ideas for tightening up FIDE's requirements, then he should be speaking PRIVATELY with people like Vlad Drkulec and Hal Bond. It is my opinion that Rene should NOT be using a public forum to slag Mr. Yang in this way.

                          I don't know Mr. Yang. He may be one of the nicest, most decent people in the country, or he may be a very disagreeable person. In my view it doesn't matter. He satisfied FIDE's requirements - period. If Rene has information that Mr. Yang somehow circumvented FIDE's requirements then, again, he should be speaking privately with Vlad or Hal.

                          If my memory is working properly, over the years at least one Canadian has been awarded the IM title by meeting FIDE's performance threshold for a zonal championship. Some people might be of the opinion that, in general, the Canadian zonal championship is not a particularly strong tournament compared to some other zonal championships around the world. So now shall we accuse any Canadian who obtained their IM title through our zonal of finding an easy path to their title? Shall we make that accusation in a public forum and then pull up their tournament records to see if their performance meets OUR expectations? I happen to think that that would not be a nice thing to do.
                          "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
                          "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
                          "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Andrei Botez View Post

                            Peter, do you think that chess community will look at Mr Yang's GM title the same way they look at Eric, Razvan or Aman's titles? Maybe you know, maybe you don't, but believe me when I say that he will not be shown same respect as the one I just mention and that will last for ever or until Mr. Yang will show way more GM level results than what it takes to get 3 GM norms.
                            This post has become absolute garbage. Kaiqi might not beat Eric/Razvan/Aman in a 6 game match, but he’s certainly stronger than everyone who posts on ChessTalk.

                            So here's the rule - if you're going to publicly disrespect a 2500 GM (or even a 2400 IM if you feel so strongly), then you have to be at least 2400 FIDE yourself. Until then, just be quiet.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Joshua Guo View Post

                              [...] you have to be at least 2400 FIDE yourself. Until then, just be quiet.
                              How about if you have 2215 FIDE (Mike I), 2251 FIDE ( Ali N) or 2055 FIDE (Henry Z)? Do you see my point?

                              Comment

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