Endgame Studies

[George Best]

Thank you for that information.

[George Best]

[George Best]

Black plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?

I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Black plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?

I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.

Why do you think it is a draw position. It is not a simple Q vs c-pawn. Black f7 and other pawns spoil it.

[George Best]

I misspoke. I should have said I am unable to find a winning combination for White as I am not a club player nor an expert, just a casual player. I was hoping that an expert or master could show me how to proceed. I too can not believe that I found a draw if the books say it is a win but I can not find the win.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Black plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?

I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.

After 4. h5


Russian book follows with 4... gh5 response. Then 5. f5 (maybe this a late mentioning of that f5+ wins :) ) 5....ef5 6. g6 fg6 7. e6 Ka3 8. e7 Kb2 9. e8Q a3 24 Qb5+ (here the variation stops.)




Now in your variation, seems you were right, the final position is probably equal


4....Kc3 5. h6 Kb2 6. h7 c3 7. h8Q c2 (here without seeing a board I thought that the Queen forces King to enter the corner, and taking a pawn on c2 in a semi-stalemate situation the Black f7 pawn will be moved. However the Black a4 and White a3 pawns do not allow all that).



8. Qb8+ Ka2 (do not take a a3 pawn) 9. Qc7 Kb2 10. Qb7+ (a small trap) Ka1 (9...Ka2 would loose Qf7 and Qe6+) 10. Qc6 Kb2 11. Qb5 Ka1 12. Qc4 Kb2 (seem only move to hold. 12...Kb1 13. Qa4 c1Q 14. Qb3 wins as in some variations White King finds an escape on an a3 square.

)


After 12... Kb2



White could go into the Queens' endgame but Black seems have a perpetual. (no escape square on an a3)

[George Best]

Does this mean that the Neustadtl-Porges 1907 endgame position published in various books and said to be a win for White, is a draw after all? Dare I think that? Can we report this to Chess Headquarters, wherever that is? LOL

[Roger Patterson]

Endgame Studies

October 25, 2020

Actually George, when referencing a study, it would be good to give the year and the author rather than just the book and page.

I have three different editions of Maizelis and was forced to go down into the catacombs to find the book you cited. It is dusty there with lots of spider webs, and dangerous, because you could get a nasty shock if you have forgotten what shelves you booby-trapped.

Anyway, beyond the Olms books section, I found Batsfords and therein this:


Original study, as above:



Neustadtl 1907

White to move and win

After these moves:

1.Kf3 Kc6 2.Ke2 Kc5 3.Kf2 Kc6 4.Kf3 Kd5 5.Ke3 Kc5 6.Ke4 h4 7.Kf3 Kd5 8.Ke3 Kc5 9.Ke4 Kb5 10.Kd4 h3 11.Ke3 Kc5 12.Kf2 Kd5 13.Kf3 Kc5 14.Kg3 Kd5 15.Kxh3 Ke4 16.Kg4 *


Position after 16.Kg4



And here Averbakh/Maizelis write:

And 16…f5+ wins (for White)

The alternative lines discussed are: 16…Ke3, or Kd5 or Kd3

possibly the text was meant to read 6.....Kd3 7 f5 (by white).


I'll confess however, that even with an engine running, I can't find a win in this position. The problem is that my computer (Stockfish) will happily pump out large evaluations (+4) in positions where white has queened but black has a supported pawn on c2 but there is no win.

e.g. 6....Kd3 7 f5 Kc2 8 fg fg 9 h4 Kxb2 10 h5 gh+ 11 Kxh5 Kxc3 12 g6 Kb2 13 g7 c3 14 g8=Q c2

and not withstanding an evaluation by Stockfish of +3.4, this appears to be a draw to me.

oops, looks like Egidius posted something similar first....

[George Best]

To summarize all of the foregoing, it seems that if Black responds to White's king side pawn advance he loses but if Black ignores White's king side advances and focuses on advancing his c pawn that he can draw.

I guess Maizelis did not contemplate allowing the h pawn to be queened but I am very uncomfortable second guessing his analysis.

[Mario Moran-Venegas]

yes it is a draw!

[Roger Patterson]

I do not know where h5 came from but that is where white went wrong. f5 instead wins.

to convince anybody you would have to give more of a variation than that. As far as I can see, f5 at any point by white does no better than draw as per the variations given previously.

[Mario Moran-Venegas]

Lazlo Polgar's Chess Endgames (1999) also says is white win. diagram 2161

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

I know that this is a winning :)

E.Z. 2020 (correcting Neustadtl-Porges 1907 ) LOL

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

I guess Maizelis did not contemplate allowing the h pawn to be queened but I am very uncomfortable second guessing his analysis.

Looking around seems that the variation was copied from one book to other. The position is in the Fine's Basic Chess Endgames No 135 with mentioning J. Faucher at the end of the variation.

Digging deeper found that the problem published in the British Chess magazine 1907 September issue. Google digitized it long time ago. A whole page is dedicated to the problem.
Move 17. h4 mentioned as a drawing one in this position




A better one 17. Ke2


While the author writes as a winning variation, Stockfish want to agree with that +147 at 41 depth. Though it takes a human input to go through moves and get =.

17...Kb2 18. Kd2 Ka3 19. Kc2 Ka2 20. h3



Here as the article is correct 20...a3 looses. (#10)

But 20...Ka3/a1 holds 21. h4 Ka2 22. f5 The article comments: "White will obtsin a Queen, and be able to stop the Black B P". Unfortunately, I could not find that stop.
22...gf (here Stockfish changed the mind. 22....ef5 was loosing indeed) 23. h5 f4 (and only King can hold this black pawn) 24. h6 f3 25. Kd2 but now other pawn will start marching 25... a3 26. h7 f2 27. Ke2 Kb2 28. h8Q



No win here again.


The article starts about dr. Hermann Neustadtl, and there is a sentence:

"His love of the game is evidenced by the fact that he has a library of upwards of 400 volumes on chess, inclusive of many rare work."


Would be interesting to find the source of Faucher's analyzes.

[George Best]

Yes, I would like to see what Faucher came up with. In Basic chess Endings by Fine (analysis by Faucher) it is clear that Black's Ke3 is the losing move but in that analysis, Black's Kd3 is not examined. What triggered me to become fascinated by this ending is that chess engines play Kd3 and never Ke3. The engines do not agree with Faucher.