Transgender women in Women's sports

[Dilip Panjwani]

This topic has become hotly debated recently in physical sports... does anybody think it will ever become an issue in Chess?

[Kerry Liles]

Far from any kind of expertise on this topic, BUT I have to presume that since chess is not based on physical strength there should not be any sort of controversy.
I am also curious why this "issue" is often focused on transgender women but seldom on transgender men?

Women and girls already have enough barriers to overcome in chess tournaments, I certainly hope another obstacle is not created.

[Pierre Denommee]

It has been debated in the Commission meetings of the last FIDE GA. The discussion was not about what you think. Because transgender and more generally, LGBTQ+ are still a crime in many Countries and even a Capital Crime punishable by Death, some transgenders asked FIDE to remove their ratings and to do a fresh star as an unrated player. By looking at a player's record on the FIDE web site, one could guess the change of sex because the player has begun or stopped playing in Women only tournaments. This could lead the player to jail (a life sentence is possible in some Countries), 100 public lashes or even an Execution. The players do not want their previous sex to be known in order to protect themselves from prosecution.

List of Countries that criminalize LGBTQ+ https://www.humandignitytrust.org/lg...lter=crim_lgbt

[Kerry Liles]

Thank you Pierre for informing us of a situation that had not occurred to me (at least).
I didn't have to click on the link to the countries that criminalize LGBTQ+ people but I did anyway and am not at all surprised...
This is truly deplorable and I hope FIDE agrees to that request.
Making the person 'start over' with no rating at all seems like an unfortunate consequence,
but I presume that too is part of the plan to make detection impossible or at least unclear.

What a world we have built...

[Neil Frarey]

It has been debated in the Commission meetings of the last FIDE GA. The discussion was not about what you think. Because transgender and more generally, LGBTQ+ are still a crime in many Countries and even a Capital Crime punishable by Death, some transgenders asked FIDE to remove their ratings and to do a fresh star as an unrated player. By looking at a player's record on the FIDE web site, one could guess the change of sex because the player has begun or stopped playing in Women only tournaments. This could lead the player to jail (a life sentence is possible in some Countries), 100 public lashes or even an Execution. The players do not want their previous sex to be known in order to protect themselves from prosecution.

List of Countries that criminalize LGBTQ+ https://www.humandignitytrust.org/lg...lter=crim_lgbt

Pierre, thanks! This 'grave concern' and a few others that I have often railed against run to the very core of who & what is the Chess Federation of Canada.

This isn't just about FIDE. It is also about those Federations who are in league with FIDE. For instance, how many countries within FIDE enforce those very egregious human atrocities on their own citizens ... and also ... how many countries within FIDE, such as the CFC, seem to tacitly condone those very crimes against humanity?

For instance ... where is the strongly stated letter of objection from the Chess Federation of Canada demanding those countries be removed from FIDE until their crimes against humanity are stopped?

I haven't seen such a letter ... have you?

Leadership?

This issue of FIDE and 'equality' starts here at home with the CFC just as much as it does with FIDE itself!

[Frank Dixon]

Thanks to Dilip for raising the question, to Pierre for his very thorough (and deeply unsettling) explanations, and to Neil for pressing the human rights issue.

The first openly transsexual high standard athlete was Renee Richards, in tennis, in the 1970s. Born male, as Rene Richards, trained as a medical doctor, and a strong amateur tennis player, as well as being a talented athlete in several other sports in youth, Richards after age 40, having fathered a child, underwent gender reassignment surgery, and aimed to compete in women's professional tennis. She won her case at the U.S. Supreme Court, after the U.S. Tennis Association challenged her right to compete as a female. She did not achieve anything significant as a player, winning but a few matches, but did coach Martina Navratilova to two Wimbledon titles. Richards was a pioneer from a human rights standpoint.

The most recent difficult case in related aspects has been the South African runner Caster Semenya, who I believe is an example of an 'intergender' person. Semenya competed as a female, and won many important events, often by significant margins. Her levels of testosterone, a mainly male hormone, were very high, too high to be a female, said certain experts; several fellow competitors complained. Semenya faced extraordinary media scrutiny at the international level over the situation; many legal proceedings were held. I believe Semenya has now stopped competing at the highest levels.

There was also a Polish -- American runner in the 1930s, later named Stella Walsh, who competed as a female at the world level, and won many awards, including at the Olympics. At her death in 1980, it was discovered that 'she' had male gender characteristics! Penis, but no uterus. It isn't that simple, however; the article on wikipedia is a better explanation.

In chess, I don't see it becoming a 'destination' as such, unless the money for women's chess starts getting much larger. What I mean there is for a male GM to change gender in order to compete for the women's world championship and / or for large money prizes in events. Too much loss of macho involved, I would think, for any male to do it. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone, either gender, who wishes to change gender and continue competing, so long as it is not a reason to climb the rankings.

I don't hold out much hope for FIDE to press the human rights issue on this matter among member nations which 'don't behave well'. Any hope of that vanished, perhaps forever, after 1982, when Florencio Campomanes (a close associate of notorious Filipino dictator Ferdinand Marcos), became FIDE President. Then we had Kirzan Ilyumzhinov as FIDE President; he was the despot leader of a former Soviet republic, who made millions at the collapse of the former Soviet Union. Now we have a Russian in charge of FIDE. These people are such a contrast to someone like GM Max Euwe, FIDE President 1970-78, and a former World Champion, who has my respect as the most effective FIDE President ever.

[Patrick Kirby]

In some sports the equivalent of a 2300 male player would dominate the top women. In chess that's not the case, the best women are at least competitive with the top men.

So basically in chess there's not really any potential for someone to abuse the system by claiming to be transgender. In order to be a favourite to win the women's world championship they'd have to be a very strong player anyway. So I don't see why anyone would care.

I don't really see why transgender athletes in sport is an issue anyway. Sports should be segregated by biological sex, not by gender identity. If a male wants to adopt a feminine gender identity, change their name, wear female clothes, and undergo medical procedures to appear more feminine, they should have every right to do that, but it doesn't mean they should be allowed to compete as a female in the Olympics.

[Vlad Drkulec]

In some sports the equivalent of a 2300 male player would dominate the top women. In chess that's not the case, the best women are at least competitive with the top men.

So basically in chess there's not really any potential for someone to abuse the system by claiming to be transgender. In order to be a favourite to win the women's world championship they'd have to be a very strong player anyway. So I don't see why anyone would care.

I don't really see why transgender athletes in sport is an issue anyway. Sports should be segregated by biological sex, not by gender identity. If a male wants to adopt a feminine gender identity, change their name, wear female clothes, and undergo medical procedures to appear more feminine, they should have every right to do that, but it doesn't mean they should be allowed to compete as a female in the Olympics.

The equivalent of a transgender 2300 FIDE former male player in chess could bump a player off the Canadian women's olympiad team much like what is happening in college and high school athletics in the U.S. I haven't followed the studies closely but there are some indications that testosterone is helpful in chess play. Nicotine is as well.

I am aware of a few transgender chess players but I don't think that most of them have even played CFC games.let alone crossed the 1000 rating threshold. Someone told me that there were players in the Windsor Chess Challenge who were transgender but since boys and girls compete together on an equal basis no one even pays attention to the gender of the players there. There are no separate girl's prizes or divisions in that tournament which was cancelled again this year for reasons of Covid.

[Brad Thomson]

I don't really see why transgender athletes in sport is an issue anyway. Sports should be segregated by biological sex, not by gender identity.

The same should apply to washrooms in public locations and schools. Perhaps instead of Men or Women the signs ought to read Penises or Vaginas.

[Patrick Kirby]

The equivalent of a transgender 2300 FIDE former male player in chess could bump a player off the Canadian women's olympiad team much like what is happening in college and high school athletics in the U.S. I haven't followed the studies closely but there are some indications that testosterone is helpful in chess play. Nicotine is as well.

I am aware of a few transgender chess players but I don't think that most of them have even played CFC games.let alone crossed the 1000 rating threshold. Someone told me that there were players in the Windsor Chess Challenge who were transgender but since boys and girls compete together on an equal basis no one even pays attention to the gender of the players there. There are no separate girl's prizes or divisions in that tournament which was cancelled again this year for reasons of Covid.

I'm sure there is some biological advantage for men in chess, probably related to physical stamina. A big part of success is being able to sustain peak performance over a 6 hour game and a ten-day tournament, and I think men have an edge here. But it's much smaller than in other sports.

Yeah, a transgender person might displace someone off the Canadian Woman's Chess team, but no one is making a living playing on the Canadian Women's Chess team. For someone to actually make a serious living in women's chess, they'd have to be a very strong player (or be very charismatic and good at making Internet content), and a man who is that strong is probably good enough to earn a living from chess anyway. However in tennis, the 500th best male player could claim to be a woman and significantly increase his earning potential. So there's a lot more potential for abuse.

[Patrick Kirby]

The same should apply to washrooms in public locations and schools. Perhaps instead of Men or Women the signs ought to read Penises or Vaginas.

There's a big difference between someone who's been living as a woman for 30 years and a former sex offender who's claimed to be transgender for 6 months. Never mind a confused 16-year-old. I think this is a situation where you can't apply a general rule, it has to be based off each individual case. For athletics it's more cut-and-dry.

[Pargat Perrer]

I'm sure there is some biological advantage for men in chess, probably related to physical stamina. A big part of success is being able to sustain peak performance over a 6 hour game and a ten-day tournament, and I think men have an edge here. But it's much smaller than in other sports.

I was watching curling over the weekend, a sport I am relatively new to. I noticed they have separate women's and men's teams, maybe they also have mixed teams, I don't know. But I'm wondering, would men be expected to do better at curling than women? Would it be unfair to have men playing against women in curling? Do they even use different weight of rocks?

[Brad Thomson]

Men are more physically strong, therefore they sweep with much more force and are thus able to cause the rocks to curve more, or stay straighter, than are the women.

[Pargat Perrer]

Men are more physically strong, therefore they sweep with much more force and are thus able to cause the rocks to curve more, or stay straighter, than are the women.

It sounds possible, but has it ever been proven by match play between men and women?

Or alternatively, has it ever been proven that sweeping with greater degree of force does make the rocks curl more? You also mentioned the rocks staying straighter, so I'm confused. What does the sweeping do .... does more, stronger sweeping make the rocks curl more or does it make them go straighter? I'm thinking it can't be both.

EDIT: googling this turned out this answer:

"At the top level, there's a bit of an advantage. Men will have a stronger leg drive allowing them to perform the faster shots more easily. Men also tend to sweep harder giving the shooter more leeway with their shots.

At the amateur level it really makes no difference at all. That's why you see most curling clubs don't segregate child and junior level play."

But I still think actual match play between men and women might not be too influenced by this difference. If it were, then men's teams should have big, beefy weightlifters having the best results (as long as they have played curling for long enough to have the skills).

The women I was watching didn't appear particularly big or strong either. Wouldn't women who look like they could be on a football defensive line make the best female curlers (again, as long as they had the requisite skills)?

[Brad Thomson]

It is certain that more powerful sweeping affects the movement of the rocks more. But it also depends upon where you sweep. Sweeping across the entire rock will make it go farther and straighter. This is because the sweeping creates a little layer of water which causes the rock to slide more and grab less. But if you sweep only on one side or the other then the rock will want to glide more on the side swept and stick more on the side not swept, thus turning the rock more toward the side not swept since that side will stick more while the swept side will glide more and therefore turn in the direction where there is no sweeping. If I have my physics correct. :)