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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
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Ukraine was committed to denying the aspirations of the Donetsk Peoples' Republic and the Luhansk Peoples' Republic (Donbass region of Ukraine). Russia supported the separatists aspirations. It opposed the Ukraine governments "no separation allowed" policy.
Ukraine was adamant that it would join NATO as soon as it was allowed. Given the proximity to Russia's border, Putin consistently made clear that he opposed this threat to the security of Russia. NATO was adamant to have Ukraine join, as were the NATO countries. This eventually meant NATO bases on Russia's border. Putin was clear that he saw NATO bases in Ukraine as a threat to Russian security.
As Erik noted, the USA had no trouble threatening to invade Cuba, and maybe even Russia, at the time of the USSR putting missiles into Cuba. This was a threat to USA security.
Had the West backed Russia into a corner, where no action of any kind on their part, including loud protest, short of invasion, was going to stop Ukraine from voting to join NATO?
Ukraine was committed to denying the aspirations of the Donetsk Peoples' Republic and the Luhansk Peoples' Republic (Donbass region of Ukraine). Russia supported the separatists aspirations. It opposed the Ukraine governments "no separation allowed" policy.
Ukraine was adamant that it would join NATO as soon as it was allowed. Given the proximity to Russia's border, Putin consistently made clear that he opposed this threat to the security of Russia. NATO was adamant to have Ukraine join, as were the NATO countries. This eventually meant NATO bases on Russia's border. Putin was clear that he saw NATO bases in Ukraine as a threat to Russian security.
As Erik noted, the USA had no trouble threatening to invade Cuba, and maybe even Russia, at the time of the USSR putting missiles into Cuba. This was a threat to USA security.
Had the West backed Russia into a corner, where no action of any kind on their part, including loud protest, short of invasion, was going to stop Ukraine from voting to join NATO?
~ Bob A (T-S/P)
Bob, none of that in the slightest justifies the invasion of Ukraine.
Bob, none of that in the slightest justifies the invasion of Ukraine.
Doesn't justify it from OUR perspective. Russia saw, among other things, a potentially existential threat and chose violence when the situation became intolerable for them. Was there really no way to mollify the Russians? I guess we'll have to wait for the decades of analysis ahead of us to find out.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
By the logic of those defending Putin did Neville Chamberlain appease Adolph Hitler. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Putin is an insane, evil psychopath. He is Hitler with nuclear weapons and the airpower to deliver them globally. In a world just as gutless as it was then. We need another Churchill and all we get are cowards, wimps and shortsighted fools who are way out of their league. We are precariously close to the edge here, not to mention climate change and the possibility of another more severe variant of COVID-19.
.................................................................2022 Average................................................ ...............................................2022 Average
The core issue, IMHO, IS: How do you describe the current form of government of Canada? Secondly, among the various types of governments across the world, past and present, which type of government seems best to you for Canada in the future, if different? What form for other nations, if different from the choice for Canada?
Participation in the thread seems to be relatively high in this first week for a non-chess thread. Will the discussion continue for a while longer, given that it is a more theoretical thread?
Humans collectively necessarily play out a battle between East and West, an opposition in the dialectic of History that will resolve or synthesize itself into a new order, which order will again break asunder... meanwhile, the entire battle East/West is itself opposed to Nature, which will have the final say, the last laugh. Where we cast our votes makes little difference now.
Doesn't justify it from OUR perspective. Russia saw, among other things, a potentially existential threat and chose violence when the situation became intolerable for them. Was there really no way to mollify the Russians? I guess we'll have to wait for the decades of analysis ahead of us to find out.
Yes Peter, we must force ourselves to understand all perspectives if we are to find diplomatic solutions. Diplomacy and Democracy is the only way forward that leads to a long term solution. There was a most eloquent speech last week by the UN ambassador from Kenya.
Yes Peter, we must force ourselves to understand all perspectives if we are to find diplomatic solutions. Diplomacy and Democracy is the only way forward that leads to a long term solution. There was a most eloquent speech last week by the UN ambassador from Kenya.
He speaks of how the African continent has found its way. Maybe their wisdom can spread globally.
Many have spoken these (empty)words before from governments more or less corrupt than the Kenyan government.
The atrocities of these countries with imperial aspirations originated in their economies of which these dictators are an integral product. Continue your whack-a -mole game if you wish. I suggest, same as in you chess game : investigate deeper.
Yes Peter, we must force ourselves to understand all perspectives if we are to find diplomatic solutions. Diplomacy and Democracy is the only way forward that leads to a long term solution. There was a most eloquent speech last week by the UN ambassador from Kenya.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
In my view, whether a country is democratic depends on the integrity of its electoral system. I think such system must be fair, accessible and unbiased.
Is there any organization that ranks countries in terms of the extent to which they meet the definition of "democracy"?
Secondly, is there agreement that all governments of the world suffer some extent of corruption? If so, does the fact of corruption make a country not democratic, if it does not affect the voting system?
Thirdly, in some countries (All?) the representative electoral system is such that the media plays a big role in the choice of the electorate. As a result, to be successful and win, you must be independently wealthy, or become indebted to wealthy individual and corporate donors, to run a media campaign. This seems true in Canada and USA, for example. Does this disqualify them from claiming to be democratic?
This is the result of a debate with two of my friends on this issue!
This really opens up a can of worms.... because while I can certainly believe Putin is issuing propaganda, the real questions are:
- is everyone in world politics issuing propaganda, and if yes, how much?
- is democracy itself based on propaganda?
- who or what is the source of all ultimate truth? Some might say the Bible, but others claim the Bible is propaganda for the Roman Catholic church.... which is a VERY WEALTHY organization
- what is the truth???
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