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You keep saying this, but whenever you are asked exactly HOW a Libertarian government would "never let such things happen", you are silent.
Could it be because "never let such things happen" means having REGULATIONS?
That's the core thing Libertarians are AGAINST.
But you have to have them... or else you will have people in Flint Michigan and every other major city drinking lead-tainted water, you will have the BP Gulf oil leak, you will have train derailments leaking toxic fumes into residential neighborhoods, and so many MORE other catastrophes caused by insufficient regulations.
Libertarianism is a recipe for disaster.... economically. We are all waiting to have you explain how Libertarianism will "never let such things happen".
The key regulation: Thou shalt not harm others unfairly, directly or indirectly, and if you do, you will end up paying dearly to compensate.... A strong Justice system is the key to Libertarianism...
Economically, it is currently nearly impossible (despite what the banks may distortingly claim) for a not-so-rich person to access enough capital if (s)he needs it to build his/her life and to deal with injustice (and eventually pay it back). A Libertarian government's energy would be devoted to compassionately (and quickly) investigate (and monitor) all requests for access to capital and ensuring that it is used for the purpose of generating more wealth, not simply for consumption... There are a number of other differences between the current system and a Libertarian system involving money supply, interest, stock markets, lending, investing, partnerships, etc. etc., which I would rather not discuss on chesstalk, as it would impose tremendous time-costs on me... sorry about that, as I think that you are intersted in knowing much more detail....
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Sunday, 8th May, 2022, 09:37 PM.
You keep saying this, but whenever you are asked exactly HOW a Libertarian government would "never let such things happen", you are silent.
Could it be because "never let such things happen" means having REGULATIONS?
That's the core thing Libertarians are AGAINST.
But you have to have them... or else you will have people in Flint Michigan and every other major city drinking lead-tainted water, you will have the BP Gulf oil leak, you will have train derailments leaking toxic fumes into residential neighborhoods, and so many MORE other catastrophes caused by insufficient regulations.
Libertarianism is a recipe for disaster.... economically. We are all waiting to have you explain how Libertarianism will "never let such things happen".
I agree and would add that the unethical perpetrators of crimes against society, such as the ones you mentioned, are not held to account as often and as severely as they should be.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
....
Economically, it is currently nearly impossible (despite what the banks may distortingly claim) for a not-so-rich person to access enough capital if (s)he needs it to build his/her life and to deal with injustice (and eventually pay it back). I agree!
A Libertarian government's energy would be devoted to compassionately (and quickly) investigate (and monitor) all requests for access to capital and ensuring that it is used for the purpose of generating more wealth, not simply for consumption... This would necessitate a large bureaucracy - anathema to libertarians?...
See bold type above.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
This would necessitate a large bureaucracy - anathema to libertarians?....
Not as large as the ridiculously huge local, provincial and federal bulk we now have....
And size is not the biggest issue; it is how much of a help (and how little of a nuisance) they are, that matters...
And won't you love it when politicians are no longer celebrities, and are just temporary bureaucrats?
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Monday, 9th May, 2022, 07:54 PM.
The key regulation: Thou shalt not harm others unfairly, directly or indirectly, and if you do, you will end up paying dearly to compensate.... A strong Justice system is the key to Libertarianism...
Economically, it is currently nearly impossible (despite what the banks may distortingly claim) for a not-so-rich person to access enough capital if (s)he needs it to build his/her life and to deal with injustice (and eventually pay it back). A Libertarian government's energy would be devoted to compassionately (and quickly) investigate (and monitor) all requests for access to capital and ensuring that it is used for the purpose of generating more wealth, not simply for consumption... There are a number of other differences between the current system and a Libertarian system involving money supply, interest, stock markets, lending, investing, partnerships, etc. etc., which I would rather not discuss on chesstalk, as it would impose tremendous time-costs on me... sorry about that, as I think that you are intersted in knowing much more detail....
First of all, thank you for finally addressing this question.
To your main point about paying dearly to compensate for violations of the key regulation, that is all good but can it really work on its own? I mean, if a Libertarian system is to prevent man-made catastrophes from happening, aren't some regulations, even possibly a LOT of them, better than no regulations? Severe penalties for the actual catastrophe aren't enough on their own. Have severe penalties for violating the regulations, which should be policed and enforced diligently.
In computer software, it is well known that a bug created early on in the process becomes very costly when it is discovered much later on in the process. So the result is that there are severe code review processes right from the very beginning that are meant to root out all the bugs as early as possible. That means lots of regulations over code, and pretty much everybody agrees this is a good thing even if it means lengthening the entire process.
Regarding the details of Libertarianism.... the devil is ALWAYS in the details.
For example, you mention "ensuring that (capital) is used for the purpose of generating more wealth". That really BEGS for details.
There are a number of other differences between the current system and a Libertarian system involving money supply, interest, stock markets, lending, investing, partnerships, etc. etc., which I would rather not discuss on chesstalk, as it would impose tremendous time-costs on me... sorry about that, as I think that you are intersted in knowing much more detail....
Well that's too bad, I was interested in learning more about Libertarianism. Thanks for your contributions even though it convinced me not to join. The goals maybe good, but I don't see any practical way to implement a Libertarian philosophy.
Not as large as the ridiculously huge local, provincial and federal bulk we now have....
And size is not the biggest issue; it is how much of a help (and how little of a nuisance) they are, that matters...
And won't you love it when politicians are no longer celebrities, and are just temporary bureaucrats?
We have been bombarded ever since Ronald Reagan that the government is the enemy. The message has been that all government employees are lazy and stupid, and that the private sector is filled entirely with heroic entrepreneurs and job creators. What a pile of crap. I hope everyone is finally beginning to see this message as just propaganda. The truth is both groups are made up of people, some good some bad, "the good, bad, and the ugly".
In computer software, it is well known that a bug created early on in the process becomes very costly when it is discovered much later on in the process. So the result is that there are severe code review processes right from the very beginning that are meant to root out all the bugs as early as possible. That means lots of regulations over code, and pretty much everybody agrees this is a good thing even if it means lengthening the entire process.
It is in the interest of the software developers themselves to debug as early as possible, even if there are no regulations... and if they do not, in a Libertarian world, they are out of business and broke in a hurry...
We have been bombarded ever since Ronald Reagan that the government is the enemy. The message has been that all government employees are lazy and stupid, and that the private sector is filled entirely with heroic entrepreneurs and job creators. What a pile of crap. I hope everyone is finally beginning to see this message as just propaganda.
I am so tired of this BS message.
No propaganda that countries like communist Russia and socialist Venezuela are an utter disgrace and a curse for the common man and woman living there...
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Saturday, 14th May, 2022, 04:02 PM.
It is in the interest of the software developers themselves to debug as early as possible, even if there are no regulations... and if they do not, in a Libertarian world, they are out of business and broke in a hurry...
In the late 1980's and throughout the 1990's, Microsoft cornered the market on graphical user interface (GUI) which they called Windows, having stolen the idea from Apple. They cornered the market so completely that they could get away with having their customers be their testers. For the customers, this meant having to deal with numerous bugs and try to find workarounds for them all.
So in those days the MS developers were NOT doing the early testing and debugging that they should have been doing. To me, this is what the Libertarian system is modeled on -- doing the barest minimum of safety checking as long as the company can corner the market and has a captive customer base. What we ended up with were MS server products that were laughably hackable, full of holes and back doors for hackers to steal credentials and data.
In today's global software marketplace, no one can get away with this anymore economically, hence the regulations on early bug detection. But this world is NOT Libertarian! So Libertarianism didn't solve the problem. For you to say "in a Libertarian world, they are out of business and broke in a hurry" is simply false. We didn't need Libertarianism to bring it about. Libertarianism would take us BACK to the days of little to no regulations, leading to one disaster after another, but still allowing a precious few to make shitloads of money. Libertarianism is designed to support those precious few, to keep them raking in the profits. The people who most vigorously support Libertarianism are those who yearn to be among those precious few multi-billionaires.
In the late 1980's and throughout the 1990's, Microsoft cornered the market on graphical user interface (GUI) which they called Windows, having stolen the idea from Apple. They cornered the market so completely that they could get away with having their customers be their testers. For the customers, this meant having to deal with numerous bugs and try to find workarounds for them all.
So in those days the MS developers were NOT doing the early testing and debugging that they should have been doing. To me, this is what the Libertarian system is modeled on -- doing the barest minimum of safety checking as long as the company can corner the market and has a captive customer base. What we ended up with were MS server products that were laughably hackable, full of holes and back doors for hackers to steal credentials and data.
In today's global software marketplace, no one can get away with this anymore economically, hence the regulations on early bug detection. But this world is NOT Libertarian! So Libertarianism didn't solve the problem. For you to say "in a Libertarian world, they are out of business and broke in a hurry" is simply false. We didn't need Libertarianism to bring it about. Libertarianism would take us BACK to the days of little to no regulations, leading to one disaster after another, but still allowing a precious few to make shitloads of money. Libertarianism is designed to support those precious few, to keep them raking in the profits. The people who most vigorously support Libertarianism are those who yearn to be among those precious few multi-billionaires.
A classic example of 'non sequitur' statements!
Microsoft was a pioneer, and like the rest of us, not perfect; they may have made their mistakes, but as a society, we are extremely indebted to what they did do...
Let us not blame all shortcomings and disasters of the governing systems which we have had on the concept of Libertarianism, which does seem to be better than either capitalism or socialism...
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Sunday, 15th May, 2022, 06:40 AM.
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