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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
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I could have provided a link to the blog, but I thought that it was important for people to see what is being posted without necessarily having to wade through all the crap (that can be done anyway if anyone wishes).
I'm glad Bob also saw the post; chances are good that the text will ever-so-subtly somehow vanish from the site soon... At least there was one witness!
There are (apparently) several people who think K.S. should be granted sainthood and he still somehow is associated with Canada; that is a shame.
No I didn't have to read it, nor does anyone have to read anything on Chesstalk. I was curious as to who you meant by Moron so I clicked into the link. There are a number of morons you could have meant and with your provacative headline you did entice me to find out.
Did you have to read my reply?
I think helping to spread this garbage around is a disservice that you are doing. You are like one of those hopeless gossips who repeat things with the excuse that you are appalled. A gossip is a gossip. Hopefully, you won't continue repeating Kevin's libels eveytime he posts something juicy on his blog.
Perhaps your disdain for those who repeat "gossip" on Chesstalk would be better directed at it's source.It is apparent from comments on K.S.'s blog that he does in fact read Chesstalk.Perhaps he will cease and desist from his libelous rants if he continues to be villified for his behaviour!
Originally posted by Heather Carbone (NickolofView Post
Perhaps your disdain for those who repeat "gossip" on Chesstalk would be better directed at it's source.It is apparent from comments on K.S.'s blog that he does in fact read Chesstalk.Perhaps he will cease and desist from his libelous rants if he continues to be villified for his behaviour!
No he's more likely to keep posting provocative garbage so that in turn others post it on Chesstalk for him saving him the trouble of even having to register to post on here. He gets 2 outlets for the price of one and has the fun of seeing people scramble around denying his libels.
Yes I do disdain people who pass on this garbage in the name of everything but what it is. If you think that someone who posts such vitriol as Kevin does on his blog is going to stop just because of some negative comments on Chesstalk you are way off. Has it ever stopped Frank Dixon?
No I didn't have to read it, nor does anyone have to read anything on Chesstalk. I was curious as to who you meant by Moron so I clicked into the link. There are a number of morons you could have meant and with your provacative headline you did entice me to find out.
Did you have to read my reply?
I think helping to spread this garbage around is a disservice that you are doing. You are like one of those hopeless gossips who repeat things with the excuse that you are appalled. A gossip is a gossip. Hopefully, you won't continue repeating Kevin's libels eveytime he posts something juicy on his blog.
I normally don't repeat Kevin's garbage and this time I carefully considered whether or not to do so. I still see no reason to choose differently in this case - sending a private email to Johathon Berry was also an option I did not choose, but did consider. Speculating about whether I am helping to spread the garbage is sort of like wishing there was never any bad news on TV. The information is there and ignoring it will not make it go away.
I agree that it is possible that Spraggett is simply baiting me/us - as he was fond of doing on the Ottawa Club message board (boy, I hope that board is closed down, but I imagine it is not...)
I hope that chess players in Canada get a sense of the drivel that Spraggett regularly posts (I am talking about the libel here - not the chess content). Even if they never bother reading his blog, they can clearly see how vindictive and petty and delusional he is. As I said elsewhere, he is showing clear signs of Fischer dementia (sans the playing strength in chess)
The harm that Fischer did to chess is enormous! So many talented young players took him as a role model. They feel that the world owes them something because they're good chess players. All of Fischer's negative qualities have been embraced as a sign of being a top chess player. It's a shame that he didn't have the character and personality of say Paul Keres or Boris Spassky to name two very fine gentlemen. Perhaps then we would have generations of young players who follow Susan Polgar's motto: "Win with grace, lose with dignity!"
Lets hope coming generations do not take Kevin Spraggett as a role model or any of the other Fischer-like obnoxious brats.
It's a shame that he didn't have the character and personality of say Paul Keres or Boris Spassky to name two very fine gentlemen. Perhaps then we would have generations of young players who follow Susan Polgar's motto: "Win with grace, lose with dignity!"
Frankly, if Fischer had had the character and personality of Keres or Spassky, it's unlikely he would have captured the US public imagination anywhere near to the extent he did, and few if any of those future generations would have begun playing at all. (As an aside, Polgar has hardly lived up to her motto based on what you can see happening in the USCF lately)
Frankly, if Fischer had had the character and personality of Keres or Spassky, it's unlikely he would have captured the US public imagination anywhere near to the extent he did, and few if any of those future generations would have begun playing at all. (As an aside, Polgar has hardly lived up to her motto based on what you can see happening in the USCF lately)
Not even close, if you look back in American history, in the 1800's there was a very polite young man named Paul Morphy who certainly captured the Americans imagination... and gained the worlds respect. There is no excuse for Fischers behavior no matter what the apologists say.
As for Susan Polgar, she doubly lives up to her motto considering the crap she has had to deal with from the USCF. Remember she would have dropped all lawsuits if the USCF would have apologized.
The harm that Fischer did to chess is enormous! So many talented young players took him as a role model. They feel that the world owes them something because they're good chess players. All of Fischer's negative qualities have been embraced as a sign of being a top chess player. It's a shame that he didn't have the character and personality of say Paul Keres or Boris Spassky to name two very fine gentlemen. Perhaps then we would have generations of young players who follow Susan Polgar's motto: "Win with grace, lose with dignity!"
Lets hope coming generations do not take Kevin Spraggett as a role model or any of the other Fischer-like obnoxious brats.
I normally don't repeat Kevin's garbage and this time I carefully considered whether or not to do so. I still see no reason to choose differently in this case - sending a private email to Johathon Berry was also an option I did not choose, but did consider. Speculating about whether I am helping to spread the garbage is sort of like wishing there was never any bad news on TV. The information is there and ignoring it will not make it go away.
I agree that it is possible that Spraggett is simply baiting me/us - as he was fond of doing on the Ottawa Club message board (boy, I hope that board is closed down, but I imagine it is not...)
I hope that chess players in Canada get a sense of the drivel that Spraggett regularly posts (I am talking about the libel here - not the chess content). Even if they never bother reading his blog, they can clearly see how vindictive and petty and delusional he is. As I said elsewhere, he is showing clear signs of Fischer dementia (sans the playing strength in chess)
Its not information, its libel and attempted character assasination. The tv news already has a wide audience. Kevin Spragett did not but you are obviously out to change that. You are acting like the crass news services who say don't blame us its just news.
I once saw a top Canadian chess player, now deceased, who was pretty obviously intoxicated yelling his head off for 5 minutes or more in the playing hall doorway at the Macedonian hall at a Labour Day tournament. This was 91 or 92, even if I had a cell phone back then to record it and put it on Youtube I wouldn't have, I have no urge to give this a wider audience. The children, women and men there having to listen to this while trying to play their games was harm enough to chess.
We all pretty much know what Kevin is like from his posts on Chesstalk before registration was required. Oh, sorry his alleged posts.
First of all,that deceased chessplayer had an illness(alcoholism) and had the intestinal fortitude to clean up his act.He was in fact alcohol free during the last six years of his life-cold turkey!Secondly,as anyone who knew him will attest,he hated gossip and once you were his friend he could overlook your faults.There will always be others who,when they fail to make their argument will try to harm you where they feel you are most vulnerable.That speaks volumes to me about their character!
As an afterthought,it occured to me that your observations,Zeljko,support my argument.The chessplayer in question(a) should have been confronted about his behaviour,and/or(b) ejected from the tournament.As neither happened,the behaviour was re-inforced and continued unabated.
Frankly, if Fischer had had the character and personality of Keres or Spassky, it's unlikely he would have captured the US public imagination anywhere near to the extent he did, and few if any of those future generations would have begun playing at all. (As an aside, Polgar has hardly lived up to her motto based on what you can see happening in the USCF lately)
Just as a matter of opinion, I must somewhat disagree with this hypothesis on Fisher. I'll explain in three parts, then present my own hypothesis. These are all my opinions and others may disagree.
PART ONE: The Problem.
We do see a problem within the population of serious chess players, debatably more so than in the general population.
We see it in Kevin Spraggett, who thinks it's fine to blog whatever he thinks is wrong with chess and other matters in Canada from a far-off shore, and not even allow debate. I'm sure Spraggett wishes to hell he had gotten a little higher on the chess ladder so he'd be held in even higher esteem.
We see it in the likes of Jean Hebert, who thinks only he knows what is good for chess in Canada AND only he knows who is to blame for the way things are, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot. We also see the other aspect Vlad wrote about, in Hebert's rantings against the financial conditions of prestige tournaments. The world OWES him the red carpet treatment, nevermind the fact he doesn't even approach Fisher in chess talent. Hebert sincerely believes that corporations have marketing money to burn, and all it takes to get them to sponsor chess is to contact them!
We even see it in much lesser lights, like Anthony Cheron, who I know nothing about except that he recently wrote on this forum that in respect to chess politics in Canada, he'd rather take the opinion of a GM than a non-GM. The title decides it! The titleholder must be right!
PART TWO: The Bobby Fisher Influence.
The media attention that got focused on Fisher as he challenged the Soviet chess machine was due to the whole Cold War-era "America vs. the Soviet Union" mentality that was also evident in every Olympic Games of that time period. And then added on to that was Fisher's good looks and most eligible bachelor status.
That combination made Fisher a media darling in America and the Western world, which brought him to the forefront in 1972. I would conjecture that Fisher's accusations and obstinance during the Spassky match were seen by Westerners as a legitimate, perhaps neccessary, part of the battle against a Soviet chess empire that was desperate to maintain itself to the point of using spy cameras on Fisher. It wasn't yet seen by the public or the media as a Fisher personality problem. I would doubt that young chess players in 1972 were so swept up in Fishermania that they immediately began taking on his abrasive personality.
The problems IMO came afterwards, when Fisher made a mockery of being the World Champion. The longer he went into recluse, the more his legend grew. Many of those who became entranced with him in 1972 found it impossible to let go of the idea that he was the greatest ever, and perhaps they even began to feel he was playing a chess game against the world. And if he was doing that, then Fisher was onto the serious wrongs of the world and now they would begin to emulate him, to join his battle. I think Vlad worded it very well: "All of Fisher's negative qualities have been embraced as a sign of being a top chess player". Not by everyone, of course, but by far more people than would have been the case had Fisher had a more genial personality.
PART THREE: A Comparison with Poker.
David, I'm pretty sure you are very much into poker, which has some interesting comparisons. In 1989, Phil Hellmuth became the youngest every WSOP main event champion at the age of 24. Like Fisher in '72, Hellmuth was tall, good looking, and I'm presuming at that time a bachelor. He's since become known as "The Poker Brat" because of his tirades against what he sees as lesser poker talents than himself. Many of today's players have similar tendencies, whether influenced by Hellmuth or not I don't know.
But for poker, this personality is good, it makes for good television. What's interesting is that none of them that I'm aware of are actively engaged in battle against the powers that run poker (although many of them are trying to earn the political establishment's recognition of poker as a game having a certain degree of skill, to the point that it shouldn't be considered gambling). None of them that I know of rant like Hebert against substandard conditions or bad organizers not contacting sponsors. They don't have to, because conditions are pretty good!
On a recent broadcast of the WSOP Main Event on ESPN, Norman Chad interviewed Howard Lederer, who was a very talented chess player who left chess behind for poker and has won 2 WSOP bracelets, but not the Main Event. Norman asked Lederer, if you had a choice between being Main Event champion or the world chess champion, which would you choose? Lederer chose Main Event champion without hesitating. The very next week, Chad mentioned another young poker talent who had left chess for poker, and asked "How come you never hear of anyone leaving poker to play chess?"
HYPOTHESIS:
Perhaps it isn't solely nor even principally the influence of Bobby Fisher that has produced today's Heberts and Spraggetts. Rather, it's far more the financial rut that chess has remained in. These talents devote all their time and energy to reach a very high level (or not), only to find there's no real recognition for them, the world at large just doesn't care, the rewards pale in comparison to... a mere card game in which luck plays a huge part!. That must have a very substantial psychological impact which some can overcome and others not.
ADDENDUM:
Someone once said that for anyone that has a predisposition to psychological problems, chess will bring it out. For Fisher himself, I think this is what applies: what it took for him to get to the top, combined with other influences such his upbringing, combined with what must have been his abhorrence of the attention, the recognition and rewards that he did receive (with which there was at that time no comparison to poker or other such game).
I wonder what we would have seen if Twitter had been around in the early '70s, and Fisher had tweeted his everyday thoughts. Imagine how many would have followed him and been influenced! Seems a trivial thought, but the technology is here now. All it would take is another Fisher to get today's ByePhone generation to agree en masse with some ridiculous assertions and who knows what would ensue?
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Frankly, who cares about your opinion on Fischer or any other topic ? You can't even write his name correctly...
I'm sorry, Jean, should I not post my opinions on this forum? I'm really, really sorry if I've done something wrong. I'll try not to do it again.... oh, and I have some oceanfront property for sale in Arizona if you're interested.
Frankly, who cares about a silent "c"? I seem to recall Bobby himself denounced the Jewish spelling of his name, but that has nothing to do with my misspelling.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Originally posted by Heather Carbone (NickolofView Post
First of all,that deceased chessplayer had an illness(alcoholism) and had the intestinal fortitude to clean up his act.He was in fact alcohol free during the last six years of his life-cold turkey!Secondly,as anyone who knew him will attest,he hated gossip and once you were his friend he could overlook your faults.There will always be others who,when they fail to make their argument will try to harm you where they feel you are most vulnerable.That speaks volumes to me about their character!
Who the heck are you talking about? I don't remember mentioning any names. If you want to jump to conclusions that's up to you. I also didn't say that I blamed the player for his or her actions. I simply said I wouldn't have publicized it by recording with a cell phone and posting it on Youtube, if say it had happened when those things were around. I did say it was an unfortunate incident and I don't think there is any denying that.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Friday, 23rd October, 2009, 12:29 AM.
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