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Well, according to the bible they weren't "born" at all.
As I recall, they were warned ahead of time what the consequences would be of eating the fruit of the tree and the consequences were not what you think they were.
Indeed, in the story they were told that on the day they ate the fruit they would surely die. But Yahweh lied to them and did not kill them. Instead he introduced death, so the story goes, to humanity. That was only part of the consequences for disobeying Daddy. He also kicked them out of his garden and introduce childbirth in pain and sentenced them to endless suffering. Nice guy, eh?
So he is a bully, a liar, as well a mass murderer. At least if we believe the words in an ancient and generally poorly translated compilation of stories.
Vlad though, keeps his focus on one story and ignores all the other stories that tell us how "god" is indeed a mass murderer. But Vlad thinks that since he murdered fewer people than Hitler then, hey, he must be an alright kind of guy.
The sacred writings of the Bible should be read on a number of different levels, not only literal but also on the level of metaphor and myth. (Myth in the sense of what Joseph Campbell means when we talk about myth and not in the sense of made up stories.) In there are explanations of the world that we find ourselves in.
In other words, Vlad gets to say what the bible "really" meant while the rest of us only get to read what it actually says. So Vlad pretends to make himself equal to his alleged god.
This world is very much an illusion where our job is to comprehend and experience Ultimate Reality to the best of our ability. The path of the mystic is probably the easiest path to directly experience that Truth but there are many other paths.
And Vlad is their prophet, whom we all must obey and not listen to those naughty scienctists who actually, you know, check out reality from time to time. A burden Vlad is careful to relieve himself of.
If you don't believe in the Bible and the writings of Jung and Campbell why don't we take a look at the message of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein as a psychological study of science gone amok.
Yeah, she knew all about science because she was, well, a poet's sister. Decent writer for her day, but an authority on science? It is to laugh.
Stalin is quoted as saying "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" in E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940 http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki..._an_atheist%3F
Christian writer Dinesh D'Souza writes that "The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism
"And if the cowherd who lives on a star asks about the GOD of plagues, tell him, happy or sad, the GOD is gone, washed away in the waters." - Mao
Our GOD is none other than the masses of the Chinese people. - Mao
"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)
"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..." - Hitler
Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)
Given that most of the quotes regarding Hitler being a Christian coming from speeches where he was trying to garner support from the German masses and quotes regarding Hitler being an atheist come from his private writings I would have to go with Hitler the atheist.
By your definition of what makes these people theists then I suppose that you yourself are still a theist because you were once a catholic. :p
More than 60 million people have been murdered on the altar of atheism. AGW is just another fraud to advance this same agenda.
Taoism, Mao was a Taoist not an atheist, he still believed in some harmony in the universe.
Even if you can prove that these mass murderers were atheists, it is not important because probably not a single person has ever been killed in the name of atheism and that Christian writer needs to get his facts straight(he was on the Colbert report once I believe). He also believes in intelligent design(a.k.a. creationism) and is against the separation of church of state, I don't think I can take him seriously.
Also you might want to read the conclusion of that article you quoted, In conclusion, I think that Hitler was not an atheist, but he was not a Christian either. While he was materialist and rationalist in a lot of things, he also talked a lot about "Providence", or "Nature", as a sort of mystical force of fate, and he saw himself as somehow destined for victory even when the war was going badly for him, simply because of the purity of his purpose, his strength of will, and his feeling of destiny. I have even read that he believed in reincarnation. To me, some of his quotes and writings make it sound like he worshipped the German national identity; some make it seem like instead of God he worshipped or idealised or divinised Providence / Nature / Fate, with his glorious destiny assured no matter what; and in some ways it seems to me like he worshipped himself.
How Many Have Been Killed by Communists/Fascists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:
None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren't all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness...
On Stalin,
Stalin's daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva Stalin said (documentary "Mysteries of the Century: Kremlin Kids" ("Тайны века" - "Дети Кремля") 2003-03-19, 1 Channel 1 Russia), how Stalin told her that Christ existed.
Journalist: It is interesting, that from all Kremlin' residents, maybe, just Stalin believed in God...
S.Alliluyeva: In father's library, between other books, were few tomes of "Christ". It was history of Christ written by vox populist Morozov. I said to my father: "But Christ didn't exist!" and he answered "Oh no, Christ, surely existed."
Under Stalin's insisting In 1939-11-11, Politburo of the Central Committee has admitted prosecutions of believers "inexpedient". In 1939-11-11 Stalin canceled Lenin's instruction from May, 1st, 1919 for N 13666-2 "About struggle against priests and religion" and gave orders to People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs (NKVD) to release from custody already arrested priests "if activity of these citizens didn't harm the Soviet authority".
Stalin "hated" religion so much, that in 1951-06-27 he gave "Stalin's Prize" to English clergyman Hewlett Johnson. Various prizes under Soviet authority received and other priests.
So the common claims that Stalin was an anti-theist is wrong, a deeper research into Russian history will give you a different perspective.
Addition
It also must be remembered that Stalin was a totalitarian dictator and that the primary reason he would have "gotten rid of" a religious person would because they would be somehow against the state and in essence him.
I don't think you can prove any of these mass-murderers were atheists, there is as much contradictory evidence for as against this matter.
How many people has God killed?, this article lists all the events in the bible where God kills some people and you see a really high number, so much for being all-loving.
Last edited by Adam Cormier; Tuesday, 24th August, 2010, 10:47 AM.
Well I will admit that Vlad is a much bigger tool than I am.
I doubt it. I read your comments about Gawd loving everyone. If that were the case there wouldn't be a hell. For a preview, take a walk through the furnace part of a steel mill. It gives warming a whole new perspective.
Regarding he bible which you have mentioned, as far as I can recall the only part Gawd produced is the 10 commandments which it's said he gave to Moses. The other parts of the bible have been subject to changes in view of the Dead Sea Scrolls and translations.
I will concede that Gary is probably a bigger tool than even Vlad.
I read your comments about Gawd loving everyone.
I never said that God loves anyone, merely pointed out that this is what collection of stories Vlad was trying to use to disprove science with says. If Gary does not understand that the Bible claims this then I sentence him to read Paul.
But it would not be the first time he fibbed about what I said to make himself look better, nor would it be the first time he has failed so abysmally in reading comprehension.
Last edited by Ed Seedhouse; Tuesday, 24th August, 2010, 07:00 PM.
I doubt it. I read your comments about Gawd loving everyone. If that were the case there wouldn't be a hell. For a preview, take a walk through the furnace part of a steel mill. It gives warming a whole new perspective.
Regarding he bible which you have mentioned, as far as I can recall the only part Gawd produced is the 10 commandments which it's said he gave to Moses. The other parts of the bible have been subject to changes in view of the Dead Sea Scrolls and translations.
I think you are a bit confused Gary, Vlad is the one defending God and religion and attacking atheism, not Ed(he is attacking Vlad's position).
You are correct Hell wouldn't exist with an all-loving God, the very existence of hell is illogical(punished for infinity, for finite sins seem rather odd to me).
As much as I love to talk about religion, God(s) and other philosophical questions. This debate is very far off-topic and was brought up by Paul Bonham regarding my belief in the supernatural. I'm unsure if this could get this thread locked...which would be most unfortunate.
An interesting article on Skeptical Science today, pointing out how a model of climate changed published nearly thirty years ago by a group of scientists predicted the observed global temperatures of the 2000's very closely indeed, the model only slightly underestimating the actual temperature rises recorded twenty to thirty years later.
Now perhaps Vlad will publish some predictions made in 1981 by some religions...
Last edited by Ed Seedhouse; Tuesday, 24th August, 2010, 07:14 PM.
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