The One and Only Climate Change thread...

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Environment and Climate Change Canada confirmed two tornadoes touch downs in Ottawa-Gatineau area. Hopefully all chess players were not affected.

(some how it slipped through my eyes that the ministry added Climate change to its title.)

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

OK, I spent a total of 5 minutes on your Facebook site on two different occasions. That is not a crime; however since it bothers you so much I will not do it again.

The truth will set you free and its also much easier if you use the truth to keep your story straight. I don't understand why you bothered to lie about it in the first place. There was never any useful information there for you to use against me and there never will be. HTH.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

I am honored that the triumvirate feels they have to dissect every single posting of mine. I would be curious to see what they and others feel about the following article discussing how just about every single marine species in the food chain, from the smallest plankton to the largest whale has injested plastic.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-2251230.html#

Any thoughts on what this means for the future?

Of course you would be honoured (sticking to the Canadian spelling, which you obviously avoid despite living there so many years). You actually think it attaches importance to you. I really think you post for that purpose alone.

Well, enough of that. As to the plastic, isn't there now biodegradable plastic? Please, mr. scientist, tell us what's happening with that? Why isn't all disposable plastic biodegradable? And if the plastic in the ocean were biodegradable (which...hmmm... has anyone in the alarmist media even investigated that???), then how long would it take to degrade? Or does it take soil to decompose it, and so any of it in the ocean will never biodegrade? My questions are sincere, I don't know the answers to them.

Speaking of alarmist media, we should expect to see the following headlines any day now:

(1) Gulf Oil Spill Crude Washes Ashore in Japanese Tsunami!!!

(2) Japanese Nuclear Radiation Poisoning Gulf of Mexico Seafood!!!

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

OK, I spent a total of 5 minutes on your Facebook site on two different occasions. That is not a crime; however since it bothers you so much I will not do it again.
I would like you to refrain from calling me a stalker. Please cease and desist the use of this terminology.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

I am honored that the triumvirate feels they have to dissect every single posting of mine.

Sure I am going to dissect every post when you are making baseless claims about my education that could affect my livelihood. You obviously don't believe what you are saying or you would have taken my wager. Further, when called on your facebook stalking behaviour and clumsy attempts at intimidation you tell some very obvious and careless lies. It makes me wonder what else you are lying about.

Dirty tricks are part and parcel of the behaviour of members of the AGW cabal/religion/political movement. Some of them were revealed and documented in the Climategate emails. Others have been widely reported.

I probably would not have a Facebook account if it hadn't been required for administering Facebook postings for work purposes. I have personally seen too many social networking sites used by internet stalkers to further their campaigns of harassment.

I would be curious to see what they and others feel about the following article discussing how just about every single marine species in the food chain, from the smallest plankton to the largest whale has injested plastic.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-2251230.html#

Any thoughts on what this means for the future?

I think it means that people have to stop being such pigs and dropping or dumping garbage in the oceans.

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

A recent study revised that figure to only 1/10th the size of Texas.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

I recall watching an episode of "Life After People" on the History Channel. What a fun show. The episode concerned how long various man-made structures would last. Sadly, the very last vestige of humanity would be an enormous mass of plastics floating around in the Pacific Ocean. It's roughly the size of Texas. If humans were to experience extinction, and aliens landed on the planet 50,000 years from now, their only indication of intelligent life ever existing here would be ... our garbage.

Sure, the direct cause is that plastics are made from oil and that people use way too much of them. Ultimately if everyone tried to live the lifestyle of the typical North American, and with global population ever-increasing, my guess is that in 20 years that mass is going to get a lot bigger. My recommendations: don't have so many kids and don't buy so much crap. ;-)

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

I am honored that the triumvirate feels they have to dissect every single posting of mine. I would be curious to see what they and others feel about the following article discussing how just about every single marine species in the food chain, from the smallest plankton to the largest whale has injested plastic.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-2251230.html#

Any thoughts on what this means for the future?

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

You just made my morning; I laughed so hard I almost spilled my coffee. The triumvirate of climate denial bots (aka denialbots) is super funny funny humor with SNR = 0

That's good that you can still laugh while the world is overheating. I guess things aren't so dire after all and we can all just ignore any of your further postings.

Coffee? Personally don't touch it, the fact that you do explains a few things.

Still lumping me in with the "deniers" even though I've made my position clear. Oh, well, some people just can't do the math (which in your case is the height of irony).

To borrow a line from a Seinfeld episode, "And you want to be my Fortran programmer!" :D:D:D

BTW, how's the world looking through those green coloured glasses?

Oh, I better stop, I might make you spill your coffee all over your Timex Sinclair.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

I would miss Gary, or Paul Bonham or Vlad; they make conversing on this site very interesting and toughen up the psyche...although in my opinion they take things a little too personally/emotionally and could lighten up a little...

As I said earlier, the SNR = 0 for the triumvirate of climate denialbots. The reason that electricity rates have risen in Ontario is due to nuclear and gas costs/subsidies/debt as can be seen from:

The most interesting facts in that article is the fact that the homeowner who heats with natural gas experiences a significantly lower total cost of energy according to the blogger's scenario and anyone who uses natural gas would know. The other thing is that his figures are wrong because the 0.4 cents does not take into account the effect of that amount on the HST component which brings the total up to about 0.452 cents. More relevant than the 0.452 extra cents is the cost per kilowatt hour produced. The suggestion from your blogger's study of the finances suggests that the green energy component of the Ontario Energy pie is less than you and others have reported. Your blog author also does point out that the costs are set to rise once more green energy projects come online. Your blogger points out that only a few of the projects are getting the 84 cents per kilowatt hour (28 times the going rate of 3 cents for other suppliers of electricity) but the rest of them are getting 60 cents (which is 20 times the going rate). The most interesting statistic is that if your friend's blog is correct then the reports of solar/wind energy as a percentage of the total Ontario electricity generating capacity are a lie or are based on some wildly optimistic number that is never attained. According to news releases that I have seen from the Ontario government the recent cost increases are largely driven by green energy. That also makes sense since a one percent increase in renewables as a percentage of total capacity will drive wholesale costs up nineteen percent or more overall given the contracts that the Ontario government is signing. That 3 cents per kilowatt hour alreading includes the inflated cost of the so called renewables as part of the weighted average.

Your blogger's numbers don't make sense or at least are not consistent with your own reports of green energy percentages in Ontario's energy mix.

Faceless Vlad will not understand this;

Facebook is not my thing. You weren't my first stalker nor even my tenth.

since he may or may not have a business degree;

Since you have declined to take me up on my wager, it is obvious what your guess is despite your prevarications.

Which is it, was it a two year degree or a four year one, and where was it done? People want to know if you have had any education in science, climate change, or other...

You will have to learn to live with disappointment. - "The Princess Bride"

Going to someone's home page on Facebook once for 5 minutes is not a crime as far as I know;

You must have gone at least twice or else you wouldn't have known about me dropping a certain store from my interests. Why do you feel the need to lie about that? The hard part about lying is that you forget your lies and its hard to keep your story internally consistent while lying. It is why police can often catch a criminal who doesn't use his right to remain silent. Didn't you ever watch "Columbo"?

Here is a radical suggestion: Try sticking with the truth. Its easier to remember. Oh wait,... that is hard for a narcissist to do as truth gets in the way of the fantasy of being a Sooper Genius (TM).

Never mind.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

I would miss Gary, or Paul Bonham or Vlad; they make conversing on this site very interesting and toughen up the psyche...although in my opinion they take things a little too personally/emotionally and could lighten up a little...

As I said earlier, the SNR = 0 for the triumvirate of climate denialbots. The reason that electricity rates have risen in Ontario is due to nuclear and gas costs/subsidies/debt as can be seen from:

http://www.eco.on.ca/blog/

Faceless Vlad will not understand this; since he may or may not have a business degree; he has not told us so we have to guess. Which is it, was it a two year degree or a four year one, and where was it done? People want to know if you have had any education in science, climate change, or other...

Going to someone's home page on Facebook once for 5 minutes is not a crime as far as I know; when someone makes claims it can help one figure out what the basis of these claims are. Especially when one has had a conversation on chesstalk for 1.5 years or so with that person; doesn't that count as somewhat knowing the person? And then telling that person you visited; and offering them to friend you and visit your page. One can adjust the settings in facebook and make the homepage private if one wants to.

Bonham would probably be interested to know that I have 2 patents, and numerous peer reviewed scientific papers published, use Google Scholar and go to the US patent office to check; it is not "stalking". Do you want to see my resume; or quiz me on the nuclear job? Speaking of jobs, what do you think an employer does when checking your background, do they get accused of "stalking"? This would be an entirely different and interesting discussion to have. Never put anything on facebook that you do not expect the entire world to see.

Gee, the triumvirate climate denial-bots are very high maintenance. Maybe we should try a posting-cap of 3-4 postings each per week. We could even do a cap and trade, so if one of you 3 posted 8 times the other two would be limited to 4, or something like that (it is still 3 times higher than my limit)...

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

This thread has become too long for my old computer and slows it. Some kind of scripting error. Failing a new thread, I probably won't be adding my comments as often.

Gary - I know a lot of great stuff...

Add some memory or buy a new computer or update your computer. We'll miss you. Well Paul Beckwith won't miss you...

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

Paul, are you ever going to stop ad hominen attacks on Vlad and just stick to your agenda? Which is, apparently, to advertise your credentials and try getting everyone to think that you are some sort of eminent scientist.

He is probably incapable of stopping the attacks. Disagreeing with him is an attack on his personal and religious dogmas. Blowback is to be expected when you are pressing on those buttons. Paul is not the first narcissist that I have engaged in this or other debates.

Your efforts to become an eminent scientist may be creditable, but why go overboard with broadcasting it? When you've written an original paper or two that puts forth some new idea(s), then you've done something. Until then, you're just another student, which as I say, is creditable... and nothing more. So just ease off with the self-promotion. Believe it or not, I'm trying to give you good advice. You have severely damaged yourself in this thread, even if your aims are altruistic (which even when you claim it, comes across as bs).

He is hoping to make a living in this field. If my view, which is probably the majority view, prevails there won't be any field to make a living in.

I'm sorry to tell you that I personally have learned more from Vlad than from you on this thread. I've learned that AGW is as much a political movement as it is a scientific theory. It frustrates you that Vlad is exposing this part of it. Your frustration is coming through in spades.

Well, I can be much more frustrating than I am displaying here. There is no need for that here, though.

I remember when you started posting on this topic and I posted back, warning you that there was this person Vlad who would be directly challenging your assertions. I actually thought then that Vlad would be the hothead and you would be the calm cool dispenser of scientific information. It turned out the opposite. You are looking quite the fool with your Facebook stalking of Vlad and your constant denigration of his education.

One uses the tools that one has available to him. Thankfully he hasn't gone to the lengths that some other AGW true believers have in the past.

Quite a while back, you criticized my attacks on Jean Hebert, and asked what I was trying to accomplish (when it should have been obvious), yet here you are doing crap I wouldn't touch. Not once did I Google information on Jean Hebert's background to try and discredit him as a person. I very effectively used his own arguments against him, and that is the true method of debating. I may have called him a name or two along the way, but hey, nobody's perfect.

One last thing: I've worked at several Fortune 500 corporations in the U.S. (Microsoft, Banta Corp., Thompson Financial, Northrup Grumman to name a few), and I've been part of their dealings with university undergraduate and graduate interns. When you write you "worked on" Fortran software as a 3rd year university student at Ontario Hydro, and then you list what the software did, I can assure readers that you had NOTHING TO DO with the workings of that software. Most likely you ran some automated or manual tests. If Ontario Hydro actually had you modifying that software in any way, please readers, sell your Ontario Hydro bonds immediately and move away from the power plant!!! Don't be fooled into thinking Paul Beckwith was some sort of genius or prodigy, as he so "transparently" implies.

The term of art is Sooper Genius (TM).

He was a student intern, nothing more. Did he learn how the software works? Perhaps... big whoopdee doo. If and when he can claim his name to a patent (as I can -- and no, Bob Gillanders, it isn't Cornerstone, LOL!), then we can give him some credit.

I personally give Vlad credit for avoiding tit-for-tat ad hominen attacks and for being able to basically refute pretty much everything that has been thrown his way. That doesn't mean I totally accept his viewpoint. I do think that if you strip away all the political overtones, all the emotional rhetoric, AGW is valid. But there is little or nothing to be done about it. So why even have this thread.... well, because Mr. Beckwith wants it, and not because he wants to save any of your asses.

The fact that you believe AGW is valid does not threaten me in any way. Faced with irrefutable proof from objective sources that AGW is valid, I could be turned to that view. The difference between Paul Beckwith and myself in this debate is that I am not threatened by someone holding a different view than my own so that I have no need to descend into negative attacks. I believe in "live and learn" and "live and let live".

My own suspicion is that we will see cooling and then without missing a beat the AGW crowd will become the AGC crowd as they were in the not too distant past. I will continue to poke fun at them and remind them of the recent global warming hysteria.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

They are holding hearings on health effects of wind farms and the company providing experts to counteract any sentiment for restrictions is Suncor which is getting into the wind turbine business apparently to double down its bets in the oil patch. Apparently it is the environmentalists who are in bed with big oil. LOL!

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

Thanks for the IESO link; it shows real-time demand and the going wholesale price. You are looking at the price in the middle of the night, of course it is the lowest point of the day.

For a self described Sooper Genius (TM) you seem to have some problems with reading comprehension. While the current price does appear on that page it also shows the weighted average price for the year to date and the weighted average price for March. Those are the figures that I was looking at.

You also ignore all the other charges the consumer pays, like taxes, distibution fees to pay for all the nuclear plants, etc...

If you think that distribution fees pay for all the nuclear plants then you really don't understand what distribution fees are. When discussing the differences in wholesale prices paid to so called green energy producers and other energy producers, of course I ignore all the other charges that the consumer pays. That is not the topic under discussion but since you brought it up all of those charges are part of the green/left wing agenda to drive up the cost of energy.

Of course a premium must be paid to kickstart an new industry;

A premium must be paid to political allies who greased the wheels of progress by making political donations.

You are no doubt referring to the situation where an innovative competitor comes out with a revolutionary new product and enjoys a premium price because having the latest cool thing is something that certain segments of the market enjoys. In the early stages of market development a competitor can do that because the factory has all it can do to just try to keep up with demand. Smart competitors quickly drop the price because artificially high prices encourages competitors and substitutes to enter the market.

Solar power and wind power are not revolutionary new products. They have been around for a long time. They are a mature industry. Government distortion of the market has stopped them from innovating and enjoying the free fall in costs that most other technology driven industries have enjoyed. Your so called necessary subsidies are hurting the industry and causing it to lag behind and embrace inefficiency. The problem is that you can only defy economic reality for so long. Eventually reality catches up.

In the 1980s I recall reading in Fortune magazine an article which said that solar power is an economical alternative to oil at $20 per barrel. Twenty five years later it can't compete with oil even at today's prices. Why not? Government subsidies have kept them from having any incentive to innovate and allowed them to stagnate and putrify.

George Guilder wrote an excellent book around 1990 called the Microcosm which described the consequences of Moore's law on society and in particular technology industries. I understand that Guilder is one of your climate progress enemies because he had the audacity to oppose your religious hysteria.

and you know that premium gets phased out as the technology gets firmly established.

As long as it depends on governments it will never get firmly established. As currently structured the industries cannot outcompete oil at $400 a barrel. Central planning always fails. Your cabal is a big fan of central planning.

As a student of business you may have studied such things. Before the floating rates, the Ontario rate was 5.6 cents/kWh but the consumers paid about 12 or 13 cents per kWh (divide your total electrical bill by kWh used to get this rate). So 80 cents compared to 12 or 13 is about 6.1 - 6.5; you are grossly exaggerating your claims to 20-27x.

Your lack of understanding is coming through again. Why would I be comparing the wholesale rate paid to producers of solar and wind power to the retail rate paid by consumers? The valid comparison is to the wholesale rate paid to other producers of electricity. The fact that you paid 20 to 27 times the wholesale price for electricity does not reduce any of the other costs but merely increases them because some of them (taxes in particular) are in proportion to your total bill.

Of course the 12-13 cents ignores the externalities, like the subsidies and underwriting that the nuclear industry got to build and insure the nuclear plants, the fossil fuel air pollution and particulates that reduce the health of Canadians and the emissions that warm our planet. So you are wrong...

What about the externalities of green power? How many poisoned Mongolians and dead landscapes resembling Mordor are acceptable to give you your endless blight of overpriced windmills on the landscape?