Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

I think you asked on the Ottawa board for the document written by Pugi (?) about the possible ways for the organization like the CFC. the document was copied and posted. Do you have a copy to post it here? I think it had some good points.

Regrettably, no I don't have a copy.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Anyone know who will be the Tournament Director?? (if I had to guess, I would have to pick Brian Fiedler...)

CHIEF ARBITER: Hal Bond, I.A.
ORGANIZERS: Greater Toronto Chess League, Michael Barron, Brian Fiedler.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Hi Kerry:

The flyer has:

CHIEF ARBITER: Hal Bond, I.A. halbond@sympatico.ca

Also, the $ 20 and $ 10 Tournament Playing Fees include the provincial portion. CFC remits it to them after collection.

Bob

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

How many new CFC members does anyone think will show up at the upcoming Canadian Open? (I suppose we really should not count people who used to be CFC members and have come back for what likely is one tournament).

The price tag for the entry fee + CFC membership would be rather hefty... I guess whatever the current tournament membership would be attractive so save a few dollars if this was a single shot deal.

At the club the other night I heard someone ask (rhetorically) why they should pay $20 a game to get hammered by someone a zillion rating points higher only to move on to pay the same to play someone around 1500? I haven't seen a clear announcement of the pairing system they intend to use (perhaps I missed that) but if it is one big section (even with accelerated pairings) it likely will result in see-saw opposition for most middle folk 1700-2000 or thereabouts.

I just looked at the 'full flyer' for the Canadian Open and it indicates that accelerated pairings will be used "in early rounds" - I guess they are hedging for flexible options?

It seems the adult tournament membership is now $20

*Effective May 1, 2009:
Single tournament memberships – Adult $ 20, Junior $ 10. Provincial portion of dues are $ 4 and $ 2 respectively.

(I am guessing that the provincial fee is on top of the $20/$10 - it isn't clear)

Anyone know who will be the Tournament Director?? (if I had to guess, I would have to pick Brian Fiedler...)

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

There is some justification

I think you asked on the Ottawa board for the document written by Pugi (?) about the possible ways for the organization like the CFC. the document was copied and posted. Do you have a copy to post it here? I think it had some good points.

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Carl:

If we are to take your proposal seriously, here's some points:

1 - The CFC is more inert than even the FQE was when it was 'stuck', I suspect, because the CFC has so many apathetic, 'sleeping' Governors. They're not yet divided, they're simply sleeping. The CFC Executive is the real power, and it is apparently not so divided or dysfunctional these days. The current CFC president may act like a dictator from time to time, perhaps, but he is not a businessman. The kind of guy that might fit your mould is semi-retired Ottawa organizer Neil James Frarey (ahem), but bear in mind his record is checkered and he needs to discipline himself not to be highly divisive.

2 - Coming up with a plan is no problem, but will it be sound :D?

3 - The Executive and the Presidency in particular are of course key to 'taking over' the CFC. The Governors are not so powerful, and if they know the plan before an election of an Executive then that makes things easier, if they vote for it in effect by electing the powerful clique/slate as an Executive, as you envisage. The 'politicians' amongst the Governors unfortunately are elected by provincial associations, so not much can be done about any disharmony they cause. Btw, Canada is already a socialist country, at least in the eyes of Americans, so you're too late :(.

4 - Realizing the plan often gets a monkey wrench thrown into it sometime when it comes to the CFC. So many more things can go wrong, compared to one province's association, like in Quebec. CFC Governors might balk if fees are increased too much for their liking, unless they are warned of this when the plan is unveiled.

Kevin,

Thank you for the details. I could be wrong but I feel discussions will last forever and I predict complete failure since the governor system and the provincial representation will not change. The only way then to improve the situation a bit would be to trust the private sector - have "Continental Chess" in the USA or Chess'n Math take the market here - invite them and propose them some solutions, some playing halls and some well located store ready for rent in your cities. That way you will have a business team or business person really working for success.

I would suggest serious Canadian players to move in Quebec just like Bator did - at least for the next two years it will be much better.

Carl

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

NORMAL PROCESS FOR CFC SUCCESS
1 - So before any poll, before any plan, you need a dictator or a united team with full power (a businessman as president) to take control of the CFC.

2 - Create a plan and announce it.

3 - Take control of the CFC with friends agreeing with your plan and kick the politicians and the socialists out of there.

[4] - Realize the plan raise the fees as much as you want to make the plan a success.

Carl:

If we are to take your proposal seriously, here's some points:

1 - The CFC is more inert than even the FQE was when it was 'stuck', I suspect, because the CFC has so many apathetic, 'sleeping' Governors. They're not yet divided, they're simply sleeping. The CFC Executive is the real power, and it is apparently not so divided or dysfunctional these days. The current CFC president may act like a dictator from time to time, perhaps, but he is not a businessman. The kind of guy that might fit your mould is semi-retired Ottawa organizer Neil James Frarey (ahem), but bear in mind his record is checkered and he needs to discipline himself not to be highly divisive.

2 - Coming up with a plan is no problem, but will it be sound :D?

3 - The Executive and the Presidency in particular are of course key to 'taking over' the CFC. The Governors are not so powerful, and if they know the plan before an election of an Executive then that makes things easier, if they vote for it in effect by electing the powerful clique/slate as an Executive, as you envisage. The 'politicians' amongst the Governors unfortunately are elected by provincial associations, so not much can be done about any disharmony they cause. Btw, Canada is already a socialist country, at least in the eyes of Americans, so you're too late :(.

4 - Realizing the plan often gets a monkey wrench thrown into it sometime when it comes to the CFC. So many more things can go wrong, compared to one province's association, like in Quebec. CFC Governors might balk if fees are increased too much for their liking, unless they are warned of this when the plan is unveiled.

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Carl:

Maybe the CFC already has their own plan. In any case, some extra cash can't hurt the CFCs cause, if enough members are supportive enough to tolerate a fee increase.

For what it's worth, I gave my own 11 point plan in another thread. However any proposed plan(s) might not lend themselves well to a poll. Respondents to the present poll may assume that the CFC would develop a plan to use the extra income, if they don't already have one that would be advanced further with the extra income. Dividing opinion over which, if any, proposed plan to adopt would make people even less likely to accept a fee increase.

CFC will not work anyway. Last summer when I saw that people like Mr xxxxx were representing the CFC I knew this system would never work. CFC need a business driving team, not radical socialists.

The FQE in Quebec management is working very good this year. Let me explain what led to such a huge success: Once upon a time.... Jean Hebert highly recommended that people create a team to take control of the FQE. He concluded that in the past people with completly opposite positions and with personnal conflicts were elected to lead the FQE. So FQE was stuck.

I then started a political campain and put messages on French Chesstalk to find some people sharing the same ideas as mines to form a group to take control of FQE. In reaction, 5 peoples probably met in a Tim Horton over a coffee cup and then announced that they would be in the run for all the position at the FQE elections. In my opinion most of them are people that were so afraid that I would succeed to take control of the FQE that they created an opposite team - this is a very good democratic reaction.

They had a plan, a lot of experience and they share the same goals and opinions.


NORMAL PROCESS FOR CFC SUCCESS
1 - So before any poll, before any plan, you need a dictator or a united team with full power (a businessman as president) to take control of the CFC.

2 - Create a plan and announce it.

3 - Take control of the CFC with friends agreeing with your plan and kick the politicians and the socialists out of there.

3 - Realize the plan raise the fees as much as you want to make the plan a success.

Carl

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Why would members support a fee increase for an organization that gives them nothing?

It doesn't cost $42 per member to operate an online rating database. And this ridiculous fee is a distinct barrier to new players taking up chess. I have personally spoken to people who would like to try out tournament chess but could not afford a $42 CFC membership + $40 entry fee. At least when there was a magazine they got some value for their money, but now they get nothing, not even an email newsletter (I've heard that such a newsletter exists, but I've been a CFC member for the last two years and I've never received one).

And whose bright idea was this email newsletter anyway? Why not just post the content for free on the front page of the CFC website to perhaps capture some public interest? I would actually be willing to pay membership fees if they were going to support a good quality website.

Hi Patrick

1) Afaik the total fee is $43 for Ontario CFC members, not $42.

2) A newsletter exists; you missed early appeals for CFC members to send in their email addresses so that they could receive it (I would think that the CFC ought to post this prominently on their website, if they don't already).

3) Posting the newsletter on the CFC website for all to see 'for free' not only gives away a service that's a privilege of being a CFC member to all, but this goes against the logic of your own earlier somewhat erroneous point (i.e. your claim that members don't even have a magazine/newsletter, as a benefit of membership).

4) An arguable 'virtue' of the webzine, while it existed, was that some info could be given away 'for free' in its 'public' section, but some members were annoyed that such a freebie was given away on such a large scale (the print magazine was ideal for giving freebies away, on a small scale, now and then to people for the sake of local CFC promotion). A webzine was a good idea in theory, but in practice it could not be sustained since apparently not enough submitted material could be put on it on a continual basis.

5) You've got a point about people who only want to try out tournament chess without committing themselves to an expensive CFC membership, given that they might stop after at least one event (at least they would have a newsletter, if the CFC got their email address). However the CFC has had this problem for decades, when they had a print magazine bi-monthly. Now at least they have a monthly newsletter.

6) The newsletter was the idea of the current CFC President Eric Van Dusen. You can talk to him anytime since he lives in our city and goes to the RA, including some weekend events, and the Annual EOCA meeting held at the RA sometime in the spring (it will be announced in the club at some point, and may be posted on chess message boards and the EOCA website as well).

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Hi Patrick:

The CFC did not uniformly collect all members' e-mails in the past. So when they started the newsletter last September, they had to ask all members who weren't getting it to e-mail the CFC office so they could be put into the e-mail group. You obviously have to do this.

It is a very good newsletter according to everyone. And everyone seems to enjoy getting it e-mailed to them directly, rather than going to a website. In fact CFC did have a webzine for a short while, after the demise of the print magazine, but it was not of very good quality, hard to keep up, and not competitive with all the other very good chess websites out there. That's the reason CFC went to an e-newsletter instead.

Bob

[Patrick Kirby]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Why would members support a fee increase for an organization that gives them nothing?

It doesn't cost $42 per member to operate an online rating database. And this ridiculous fee is a distinct barrier to new players taking up chess. I have personally spoken to people who would like to try out tournament chess but could not afford a $42 CFC membership + $40 entry fee. At least when there was a magazine they got some value for their money, but now they get nothing, not even an email newsletter (I've heard that such a newsletter exists, but I've been a CFC member for the last two years and I've never received one).

And whose bright idea was this email newsletter anyway? Why not just post the content for free on the front page of the CFC website to perhaps capture some public interest? I would actually be willing to pay membership fees if they were going to support a good quality website.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

In Karate the budget for an individual yound or adult here in Montreal is between 100 to 150$ per month, 8-9 months per years including the competitions fees.

What are the competitions fees in karate? (if you can break them in levels similar to chess: Canadian Open and Closed 150-200; opens 40-100; club tournaments 0-30, etc)

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Carl:

Maybe the CFC already has their own plan. In any case, some extra cash can't hurt the CFCs cause, if enough members are supportive enough to tolerate a fee increase.

For what it's worth, I gave my own 11 point plan in another thread. However any proposed plan(s) might not lend themselves well to a poll. Respondents to the present poll may assume that the CFC would develop a plan to use the extra income, if they don't already have one that would be advanced further with the extra income. Dividing opinion over which, if any, proposed plan to adopt would make people even less likely to accept a fee increase.

[Carl Bilodeau]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

This is a poll to see if respondents would like to change the current price of an Ordinary (adult) annual CFC membership fee.

There is some justification, perhaps, for raising the fee, given that the CFC now produces a monthly email newsletter. In the past, when the CFC had a print magazine, issues were produced every two months, at the most.

I believe the current price of a CFC membership is $36, plus the applicable provincial association fee. In Ontario, for example, the total cost to be an Ordinary CFC member is $43.

If I say who wants to pay more for the coffee the answer of the poll will be obvious.

The question is: Do you have a plan? Raising the fees is not a plan. If you have a plan then raise the fees so that you can make it happen and forget the polls. There is no business if you don't take risks.

In Karate the budget for an individual yound or adult here in Montreal is between 100 to 150$ per month, 8-9 months per years including the competitions fees. Create projects, take risks and within 5 years people in Chess could spend the same money (they will not tell you that because they don't know that they will accept to pay this price). I pay this price for 5 of my kids every months. In my city in South Shore of Montreal there is at least 3 Karate Clubs with more than 200 members.

Forget those who can't pay, their personal finances are not your responsabilities. If you have good events and prizes they will find a job or sell chocolate bar to be there.

Carl

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

The CFC provides no value whatsoever for the $42 dollars annual fee. If you didn't need membership in the CFC to play in rated chess tournaments, you can be 100% sure that membership numbers would drop to zero. This large membership fee (with tournament entry fees on top) is a barrier to participation in chess events for new players.

How many new CFC members does anyone think will show up at the upcoming Canadian Open? (I suppose we really should not count people who used to be CFC members and have come back for what likely is one tournament).

The price tag for the entry fee + CFC membership would be rather hefty... I guess whatever the current tournament membership would be attractive so save a few dollars if this was a single shot deal.

At the club the other night I heard someone ask (rhetorically) why they should pay $20 a game to get hammered by someone a zillion rating points higher only to move on to pay the same to play someone around 1500? I haven't seen a clear announcement of the pairing system they intend to use (perhaps I missed that) but if it is one big section (even with accelerated pairings) it likely will result in see-saw opposition for most middle folk 1700-2000 or thereabouts.