Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC 2010-11 Budget Presentation

Hi Bob:

Maurice told me last night he is currently working on the 2010-11 budget, and will advise me as soon as he has a projected presentation date - he is aware of the governors' request that it be done as of March 31, and he is trying to see if he can meet that, but won't commit to it yet, 'til he's got more of a sense of when he thinks he can complete it.

Bob

I'd have thought for the CFC's budget all anyone would need is the back of an envelope and a pencil.

A month is a budget for a company with a billion dollar maket cap.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

What benefits do I get as a member of the C.F.C.?
When you become a member of the CFC.....

Maybe the best way for people to find whether fees should be raised or lowered is to compare what residents of other comparably developed countries pay to be members of their national federations, and what they get for what they pay.

For example, compare to USCF, and to whatever federations exist in countries like Britain, Germany, France, Japan.

In all these comparisons, you'd have to take currency exchange rates into consideration to even things out, such as rating fees.

I doubt that all these federations are in collusion to limit what they provide to their members to the same basic things. But if these same basic things turns out to be what they are all providing - nothing more nothing less, nobody is paying for dancing girls at national events - then someone would have to make a case for adding something new to what the CFC provides. Patrick Kirby is trying to make such a case for the newsletter being free, but the problem is there isn't any survey or study showing that this would drive up membership. I tried to make a case for the CFC including chess960 events in parallel with all major chess events, but same problem, there's no evidence to suggest this might bring in more people.

At some point, if membership is getting low enough, somebody has to take some risk and just try something. Doesn't sound like the CFC is near that point yet, and chess being a very conservative and cash-poor business, the status quo is all you can expect.

On another thread, Carl Bilodeau argues that the CFC must kick out all the socialists and politicians and put in some business people. Somewhat simplistic, in that business people are notorious for taking other people's money and either absconding with it or spending it on some unfounded ideas only to discover that they might as well have been throwing the money to the wind (like a Trillium grant, for one example).

Carl does make a comparison to the FQE, which he states is undergoing such a renewal process and is producing great results in Quebec. Something does seem to be up in Quebec, whether it's due to Carl's simple math or not is not for me to say. It could well be that the FQE, being taxpayer funded, is in a much stronger financial position than the CFC and can do much more because of it, which would be the ultimate irony to Carl's ideas.

Maybe the rest of Canada just needs to convince their provincial governments to put some money into chess, with Quebec as a poster child. On the other hand, since other threads seem to show that curling provides all the mental benefits of chess and makes people healthier besides, maybe the rest of Canada can move en masse into curling. In 20 years time, maybe the people of Quebec, 50% or more involved in weekend chess, will be suffering heart attacks while the rest of Canada will be doing Participaction commercials, juggling 3 curling rocks while mocking "girly men" chess players.

[Bob Armstrong]

CFC 2010-11 Budget Presentation

Hi Bob:

Maurice told me last night he is currently working on the 2010-11 budget, and will advise me as soon as he has a projected presentation date - he is aware of the governors' request that it be done as of March 31, and he is trying to see if he can meet that, but won't commit to it yet, 'til he's got more of a sense of when he thinks he can complete it.

Bob

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

and I think at the time you originally posted it, I replied that that answer is inadequate. As Bindi points out, most of your 2nd paragraph does not involve cash outlay by the CFC or organizational effort by CFC staff. The rating system pays for itself [allegedly], and I belong to a chess fraternity even without the existence of the CFC.

Which leaves the CFC magazine and FIDE. The FIDE costs are only marginally larger than what the Foundation hands over, so if that is all the CFC needs money for, then why is it deemed to be in the national interest to coerce every tournament player to buy a subscription for $36 a year? (and it's not even delivered to all members!).

Back when Lavin was first running he made a statement along the lines of it being necessary to evaluate the basis of the CFC, what where the core things it had to do and what it cost to do them. As far as I know, that exercise was never done. Back in the day, when a magazine was the only was to communicate Canadian chess news that might have been a compelling reason for a forced membership model. But it's not true anymore.

Well, I just remember some people really liked my answer! ;)

All kidding aside, I think my answer does sum up accurately what you get for your CFC membership dues! :) Your complain is really that the CFC does not provide adequate services for what it charges! Correct?

Again, in case anybody has the mistaken impression that I am happy with the performance of the CFC, I can assure you that I am not!

I hope we will see a budget for the upcoming year soon. :D

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Roger, I answered that question when I was ED. I see my answer is still on the website, and I am happy to see it has been updated for the newsletter. See website under memberships:

What benefits do I get as a member of the C.F.C.?
When you become a member of the CFC, you join a fraternity of chess players, enthusiasts, teachers, and organizers from across Canada devoted to promoting chess. The CFC represents Canada to the world as a member of FIDE, the international chess body. The CFC sends teams to the Chess Olympiad, World Youth Chess Championship, and other major international events. The CFC holds national championships (including the Canadian Open, Canadian Youth Chess Championship, Canadian Closed, Canadian Women’s Championship) to showcase Canadian talent. The CFC website keeps players informed on is what happening including tournament listings, tournament reports and news items, listings of local chess clubs, and so much more. Your membership dues support all these activities to help ensure chess prospers in Canada. As a member, you are welcomed at CFC events across Canada, including national tournaments, weekend swisses, and local club tournaments.

Other benefits of membership include:

A national CFC chess rating,
Subscription to the monthly Canadian Chess News, an electronic newsletter,
And discount prices at the CFC online store.


Maybe you don't like the answer, but the question has been answered. :)

ps. It sure would be nice if some CFC executive would come on and defend the CFC. It's not my job anymore!!

and I think at the time you originally posted it, I replied that that answer is inadequate. As Bindi points out, most of your 2nd paragraph does not involve cash outlay by the CFC or organizational effort by CFC staff. The rating system pays for itself [allegedly], and I belong to a chess fraternity even without the existence of the CFC.

Which leaves the CFC magazine and FIDE. The FIDE costs are only marginally larger than what the Foundation hands over, so if that is all the CFC needs money for, then why is it deemed to be in the national interest to coerce every tournament player to buy a subscription for $36 a year? (and it's not even delivered to all members!).

Back when Lavin was first running he made a statement along the lines of it being necessary to evaluate the basis of the CFC, what where the core things it had to do and what it cost to do them. As far as I know, that exercise was never done. Back in the day, when a magazine was the only was to communicate Canadian chess news that might have been a compelling reason for a forced membership model. But it's not true anymore.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Last time I checked, the Canadian open is usually auctioned off to a group of organizers who have the time and money to organize it so no, CFC does not have anything to do with the CO other than letting someone else take care of it.
Along with all the other tournaments you listed, Can junior, CYCC, Cwomen's, Canadian Closed, all of those are basically organized in the same way. Organizers chooses which they want to do and if no one wants to do something (I don't think the women's championships is held every year, correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't get done. Most of the time, the bulk of the financing dedicated to sending the guys/girls to international level is basically through the fun big entree fees that's basically the norm in these events. I don't know when the last time the CYCC or Can Junior wasn't 150/head and sometimes people even raise it due to late fees.

To be honest, I'm not a cfc member anymore and I haven't checked the cfc website but when I used to check it, it was usually out of date and if I need anything, I would go to chess.bc.ca, my old provincial website to see what's happening and even chesstalk.com, since this forum actually provides more views and better coverage of events than the actual cfc website.

Furthermore, the cfc magazine is cool and all but when I was a member, I never got a single issue of it and who buys books from the cfc store nowadays? Even with discounts, most of the prices are basically the same or higher than their competitors so ya, paying 43 a year for basically rating fees is definitely not worth it and now with the 20 tourney fee imposed since last year, I find myself not even wanting to play in most weekend swisses, and there's really not that many of them.

So, that's a nice advertisement for what the CFC is connected with, but really, they don't really do that much. It's mostly the organizers who wants to dedicate their time that really should take credit for having tournaments still ongoing. Imagine if Alberta in the past couple years didn't want to do the Canadian Open or they don't have funds to do any of the big tournaments recently, who will have known that canada actaully has norm tournaments other than their national ones?

Absolutely on the money (no pun intended). Of course, it isn't that (an adult) pays $43 in Ontario "for rating fees" - the $43 is for the PRIVILEGE of being rated - at $3/event - perhaps more! Now, to be fair, some clubs pay the rating fees (presumably out of the club membership fees) so they aren't as visible out of the pocket but are an expense to the player in one way or another.

I challenge the CFC Executive to justify the CFC fee and I also challenge the OCA Executive to justify the even more useless OCA fee. The OCA *only* redistributes the money collected on their behalf by the CFC to the chess leagues around Ontario (Eastern, Northern, SWOCL and GTCL) and from where I sit provide absolutely nothing of value.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

So, that's a nice advertisement for what the CFC is connected with, but really, they don't really do that much. It's mostly the organizers who wants to dedicate their time that really should take credit for having tournaments still ongoing.....

We all agree that it's the organizers that keep Chess in Canada alive. Please don't mistake my comments as "wow, what a great job CFC is doing". I am disappointed like everyone else. :(

Just putting in my 2 cents. :D

You should visit the Mississauga club more often. No CFC membership required.:D

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Roger, I answered that question when I was ED. I see my answer is still on the website, and I am happy to see it has been updated for the newsletter. See website under memberships:

What benefits do I get as a member of the C.F.C.?
When you become a member of the CFC, you join a fraternity of chess players, enthusiasts, teachers, and organizers from across Canada devoted to promoting chess. The CFC represents Canada to the world as a member of FIDE, the international chess body. The CFC sends teams to the Chess Olympiad, World Youth Chess Championship, and other major international events. The CFC holds national championships (including the Canadian Open, Canadian Youth Chess Championship, Canadian Closed, Canadian Women’s Championship) to showcase Canadian talent. The CFC website keeps players informed on is what happening including tournament listings, tournament reports and news items, listings of local chess clubs, and so much more. Your membership dues support all these activities to help ensure chess prospers in Canada. As a member, you are welcomed at CFC events across Canada, including national tournaments, weekend swisses, and local club tournaments.

Other benefits of membership include:

A national CFC chess rating,
Subscription to the monthly Canadian Chess News, an electronic newsletter,
And discount prices at the CFC online store.


Maybe you don't like the answer, but the question has been answered. :)

ps. It sure would be nice if some CFC executive would come on and defend the CFC. It's not my job anymore!!

Last time I checked, the Canadian open is usually auctioned off to a group of organizers who have the time and money to organize it so no, CFC does not have anything to do with the CO other than letting someone else take care of it.
Along with all the other tournaments you listed, Can junior, CYCC, Cwomen's, Canadian Closed, all of those are basically organized in the same way. Organizers chooses which they want to do and if no one wants to do something (I don't think the women's championships is held every year, correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't get done. Most of the time, the bulk of the financing dedicated to sending the guys/girls to international level is basically through the fun big entree fees that's basically the norm in these events. I don't know when the last time the CYCC or Can Junior wasn't 150/head and sometimes people even raise it due to late fees.

To be honest, I'm not a cfc member anymore and I haven't checked the cfc website but when I used to check it, it was usually out of date and if I need anything, I would go to chess.bc.ca, my old provincial website to see what's happening and even chesstalk.com, since this forum actually provides more views and better coverage of events than the actual cfc website.

Furthermore, the cfc magazine is cool and all but when I was a member, I never got a single issue of it and who buys books from the cfc store nowadays? Even with discounts, most of the prices are basically the same or higher than their competitors so ya, paying 43 a year for basically rating fees is definitely not worth it and now with the 20 tourney fee imposed since last year, I find myself not even wanting to play in most weekend swisses, and there's really not that many of them.

So, that's a nice advertisement for what the CFC is connected with, but really, they don't really do that much. It's mostly the organizers who wants to dedicate their time that really should take credit for having tournaments still ongoing. Imagine if Alberta in the past couple years didn't want to do the Canadian Open or they don't have funds to do any of the big tournaments recently, who will have known that canada actaully has norm tournaments other than their national ones?

[Ken Craft]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

Maybe a slate dedicated to communicating with the membership could contest the next Executive elections.

[Bob Armstrong]

Where are the Executive?

Hi Bob:

Good defence of CFC membership - it should be sent to all members ! And I think membership is a bargain at the price CFC charges.

And I, as a lowly governor, also sometimes feel a little lonely defending the CFC, with executives almost never on the horizon.

I have stated before, and I will again, that the executive need to monitor, on a regular basis, both this board and the Governors' Discussion Board. I got the CFC originally to bring these two boards back to life when the CFC had let them lapse for some time - admittedly the executive and a few others were lukewarm to the idea.

But I think they have shown that they serve a purpose - lots of current CFC matters are discussed by members/governors on this board now. And even the Governors' Board is now being used a bit more. And there are questions - and they are often going unanswered because so few executive come to the board. I know the executive are busy, but surely they could divide up the task, so someone from the executive is monitoring at various times.

Maybe the executive could discuss this??

Bob

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

The basic problem with the membership fee is not the amount per se, it's that nobody can answer the question of what it is for.

Roger, I answered that question when I was ED. I see my answer is still on the website, and I am happy to see it has been updated for the newsletter. See website under memberships:

What benefits do I get as a member of the C.F.C.?
When you become a member of the CFC, you join a fraternity of chess players, enthusiasts, teachers, and organizers from across Canada devoted to promoting chess. The CFC represents Canada to the world as a member of FIDE, the international chess body. The CFC sends teams to the Chess Olympiad, World Youth Chess Championship, and other major international events. The CFC holds national championships (including the Canadian Open, Canadian Youth Chess Championship, Canadian Closed, Canadian Women’s Championship) to showcase Canadian talent. The CFC website keeps players informed on is what happening including tournament listings, tournament reports and news items, listings of local chess clubs, and so much more. Your membership dues support all these activities to help ensure chess prospers in Canada. As a member, you are welcomed at CFC events across Canada, including national tournaments, weekend swisses, and local club tournaments.

Other benefits of membership include:

A national CFC chess rating,
Subscription to the monthly Canadian Chess News, an electronic newsletter,
And discount prices at the CFC online store.


Maybe you don't like the answer, but the question has been answered. :)

ps. It sure would be nice if some CFC executive would come on and defend the CFC. It's not my job anymore!!

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

I would say $50 per year is reasonable, especially for the more active players.

Even if all we were getting for out money was the magazine, I'm sure many would agree that a monthly chess magazine is worth at least $3-$4 per issue.

if the CFC was doing something useful with the money chesswise, it might indeed be reasonable. So what does it do with the membership money? Does it fund any of the national championships? No. Does it fund the Olympic team? No. It maintains staff who take in the memberships. Oh, it does pay it's FIDE dues, an organization that doesn't seem like such a worthy cause although it's probably unavoidable.

As to the value of the magazine, that value would be what you could sell a subscription for without being coerced to buy it in order to play. Online subscriptions don't seem to fair very well. Many people are perfectly happy to buy a hard copy of a newspaper but newspapers have failed abysmally in trying to sell online content. And I sure that those who do not have internet access or only have it at work do not attach much value to it. So, I suspect you could not sell a subscription to it at $3/issue. Even as it is, with free distribution to CFC members, many of them are not getting it.

The basic problem with the membership fee is not the amount per se, it's that nobody can answer the question of what it is for. I could live with the negative impact it has on local participation if I thought something positive was being done with the money for something I cared about.

You mention "especially for active players". Yes, and for occasional, beginning, and players in regions without much activity, it is a problem.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

I could see archiving the CCN onto the CFC website after 6 months, to allow public access at some time in the future.

Would this give both sides something - members get something unique - only they get the newsletter, not the public; but the public eventually get to read them , only they are 6 months old ( but they would still be read for the great articles ).

What do you think?

Bob

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

I just don't get all the grumbling about membership fees. I would say $50 per year is reasonable, especially for the more active players.

Even if all we were getting for out money was the magazine, I'm sure many would agree that a monthly chess magazine is worth at least $3-$4 per issue.

Thank you Jordan. I was just reading another thread where it was proposed to give away the CFC newsletter for free. I sure hope those people don't run for CFC executive positions! Bankruptcy again!

Having worked at the CFC office, I can tell you that most members find the dues very reasonable. :)

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Would you change the CFC Ordinary Members' fee?

I just don't get all the grumbling about membership fees. I would say $50 per year is reasonable, especially for the more active players.

Even if all we were getting for out money was the magazine, I'm sure many would agree that a monthly chess magazine is worth at least $3-$4 per issue.