$ 400 in 5 hours work !!

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Organizer Obligation to Seek Sponsors

The Deadline for bids for national tournaments is the AGM, as I understand it. And the CFC Governors vote on acceptance of bids. So in a bid, when an organizer states what " significant efforts " he intends to make to find sponsors, the Governors will be the judge of whether the proposed efforts are sufficient for acceptance of the bid.

That doesn't seem to have changed. The bids will still be judged on what the governors like the most.

If organizing a major event is such a good deal, how come the CFC doesn't do the organization, line up the sponsors and simply hire an organizer in the area they want the event to look after the local details?

The last time I looked the CFC didn't have much sponsorship for the Olympiad. It has to be more prestigious to sponsor an Olympiad than a Canadian Closed, so what's the problem?

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Organizer Obligation to Seek Sponsors

The Deadline for bids for national tournaments is the AGM, as I understand it. And the CFC Governors vote on acceptance of bids. So in a bid, when an organizer states what " significant efforts " he intends to make to find sponsors, the Governors will be the judge of whether the proposed efforts are sufficient for acceptance of the bid.

After that date, the Handbook says:

Section 9
Uncontested Bids for National Tournaments

944. If the published deadline for bids has passed, the CFC Executive is empowered to award all national tournaments unless there are two or more conflicting bids. [see Motion 80-20; GL, June 1980, p. 125]

So uncontested bids will then be decided upon by the Executive - so they will determine " significant efforts " as projected in a bid.

It is felt that some latitude has to be given to organizers on this, and that the criteria should be somewhat flexible re compliance. The point is to get organizers thinking of sponsorship as part of organizing, as much as advertising.

Bob

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Organizer Obligation to Seek Sponsors

But GM Mark Bluvshtein has brought a motion, seconded by me, to strengthen the national standards for major tournaments in Canada. One of the amendments he has proposed to Section 8 of the Handbook, dealing with the Canadian Closed , is:

" Section 811 ( b ) The organizers shall provide a prize fund; part of this obligation shall be to make a significant effort to find sponsors; .............

( d ) Bidders for the Canadian Championships shall take into account in their bids this section 811 of section 8 of the Handbook, and if they intend to exempt themselves from any of the conditions herein, they shall clearly note such in their bids, so the CFC can determine whether such bids will be accepted. "

Mark hopes that his will make clear that organizers have an obligation to at least try to find sponsors, and that they risk non-acceptance of their bid should they try to exempt themselves from this condition of bidding.

Bob

Would you define "significant effort"? Would it be sending some letters to companies, dining executives, setting up appointments, visiting offices? Without some definition the term can mean whatever an organizer wants it to mean.

If an organizer spends say $1,000.00 to try to find sponsors for a large event and is unsuccessful, where do you suppose that $1,000.00 will come from? Would it come from the prize fund for the event? The organizer won't want to take the loss.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

But let's forget about the CFC for a moment and focus on Jean's criticisms of organizers. Do you agree with these criticisms? Do you agree that organizers, and specifically those outside of Quebec, are either not seeking sponsorship at all or are not seeking it aggressively enough

Paul, what do you think about the tournament organizers mentioned in the first post of this thread? Do you think the tournament will take place? How many times will it be rescheduled until it will be canceled? (an active tournament with >100 CFC players)

I think, that many, who wrote on this thread, pointed that the tournament announcement is not realistic. I see the announcement as an advertisement of their sale of a chess equipment, too :D

[Bob Armstrong]

Organizer Obligation to Seek Sponsors

I am not sure of the extent to which organizers outside of Quebec make significant effort to find sponsors.

But GM Mark Bluvshtein has brought a motion, seconded by me, to strengthen the national standards for major tournaments in Canada. One of the amendments he has proposed to Section 8 of the Handbook, dealing with the Canadian Closed , is:

" Section 811 ( b ) The organizers shall provide a prize fund; part of this obligation shall be to make a significant effort to find sponsors; .............

( d ) Bidders for the Canadian Championships shall take into account in their bids this section 811 of section 8 of the Handbook, and if they intend to exempt themselves from any of the conditions herein, they shall clearly note such in their bids, so the CFC can determine whether such bids will be accepted. "

Mark hopes that his will make clear that organizers have an obligation to at least try to find sponsors, and that they risk non-acceptance of their bid should they try to exempt themselves from this condition of bidding.

Bob

[Paul Bonham]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

I do not know Jean; I do not believe we have ever met. I don't see the relevance of anything else he is or isn't doing since I mentioned his newsletter specifically. I imagine he is a good resource for chess in Quebec (since he is living there and knows many people there - again an assumption...)

Yes, it IS free to me and to all who care to subscribe. If it is funded in whole or in part by some chess organizers that is a smart move. If he is doing it on his own nickel then that is even more commendable.
I note that he advertises some services that he offers to chessplayers - perhaps that is sufficient for him to justify the time it takes to produce it.

If a newsletter with games analysis (and puzzles and some direct insight into some situations where Jean was present) is of no value to chess in Canada, then someone ought to put Tony Ficzere out of his misery now - he is doing precisely that (in an editorial role) for the CFC who indeed considered that concept of great value. Jean is clearly a Quebecer and fully entitled to write the newsletter in his native language; anyone interested enough can cut and paste it into Google translate (although that is tedious) or they can perhaps simply ignore the French text and follow along the alternate lines (with the usual standard symbols for + or - or ? or ! to help them out - I know I spent YEARS doing that with Shakmatny Bulletin and Chess Informants and Deutche Schachzeitung .... Anything (even a modest Club website) that promotes the study and enjoyment of chess has to be a positive influence - doesn't it??

I have answered despite the fact that I have the impression that you are merely baiting me with your questions and likely will use my answers to ridicule Jean (that does appear to me to be your mission above all else). If that is the case, consider this my only and last response.

Kerry, I promise I wasn't attempting to bait you in any way. After your apology, I have great respect for you. Please attempt to have at least some respect for me. I'm not out to destroy Jean Hebert, that is really absurd. I just don't agree with his arrogant Father-Knows-Best attitude. Are you blind to his arrogance? If he could change his arrogance and be really open to ideas and dialog, I'd be really impressed. But look even at how he treats David Ottosen (whom I should state I do not know and don't communicate with). Pure arrogance and demeaning attitudes. Even the usually gracious Bob Gillanders is losing patience.

Kerry, I did not say a newsletter was of no value to chess in Canada. Of course it is of value, but only to those already playing chess. What I wrote or at least meant was that it doesn't contribute to the growth of chess in Canada. Unless there's something more in it than mere analysis of chess games.

When it comes to growth of chess in Canada, Jean's newsletter is a non-factor, that is what I was saying, and it is simply my opinion. I'm not saying his newsletter is a bad thing or has no value.

You also say in so many words that the CFC has been a non-factor for this growth. But let's forget about the CFC for a moment and focus on Jean's criticisms of organizers. Do you agree with these criticisms? Do you agree that organizers, and specifically those outside of Quebec, are either not seeking sponsorship at all or are not seeking it aggressively enough?

Again, this isn't any kind of baiting. Jean has made accusations, very general ones, and we that care about chess in Canada need to come to some kind of conclusion as to the truth of them.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

Kerry, how well do you know Jean and how knowledgeable are you of what Jean is doing (besides his newsletter)?

I do not know Jean; I do not believe we have ever met. I don't see the relevance of anything else he is or isn't doing since I mentioned his newsletter specifically. I imagine he is a good resource for chess in Quebec (since he is living there and knows many people there - again an assumption...)

Two points about this newsletter:
(1) it is NOT free, he is paid by tournament organizers, who are sure to be getting that back from tournament entry fees, thus the newsletter is paid for by the average Jacques who enters Quebec tournaments. It may be free for Kerry Liles and others outside of Quebec, but I would bet that's an unintended consequence.

Yes, it IS free to me and to all who care to subscribe. If it is funded in whole or in part by some chess organizers that is a smart move. If he is doing it on his own nickel then that is even more commendable.
I note that he advertises some services that he offers to chessplayers - perhaps that is sufficient for him to justify the time it takes to produce it.

(2) a newsletter with games analysis does nothing to grow chess in Canada. That is my opinion, but if you disagree, please explain in detail what you think it does for chess growth. And then explain why, if it's so good for chess growth and Jean is for chess growth in CANADA, why he doesn't take a few hours extra time to do it in English? Something like that could actually go far to convincing people outside Quebec that Jean really does care about chess growth in Canada.

If a newsletter with games analysis (and puzzles and some direct insight into some situations where Jean was present) is of no value to chess in Canada, then someone ought to put Tony Ficzere out of his misery now - he is doing precisely that (in an editorial role) for the CFC who indeed considered that concept of great value. Jean is clearly a Quebecer and fully entitled to write the newsletter in his native language; anyone interested enough can cut and paste it into Google translate (although that is tedious) or they can perhaps simply ignore the French text and follow along the alternate lines (with the usual standard symbols for + or - or ? or ! to help them out - I know I spent YEARS doing that with Shakmatny Bulletin and Chess Informants and Deutche Schachzeitung .... Anything (even a modest Club website) that promotes the study and enjoyment of chess has to be a positive influence - doesn't it??

I have answered despite the fact that I have the impression that you are merely baiting me with your questions and likely will use my answers to ridicule Jean (that does appear to me to be your mission above all else). If that is the case, consider this my only and last response.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

I think Jean makes some excellent points; it seems hard for me as a non-master to even appreciate whatever organization issues there are in upper-class chess, but I agree with Jean when he points out that the CFC does not have programs in place. The CFC is a bureaucracy that is obsessed with maintaining the status quo. There is always much ado about nothing and nothing to do with CHESS or CHESS tournaments or organizing or promotion.

One thing I would echo from another poster elsewhere: Jean is actually DOING something... it is possible to complain that it isn't enough, but one cannot complain he is doing nothing. I subscribe to his very fine weekly journal and even though my French is abysmal, I work hard at trying to follow the analysis he provides (for FREE!).

If half the energy spent on attacks on others on this board were redirected toward legitimate chess-related activities, the game we all enjoy would be better off here in Canada...

Kerry, how well do you know Jean and how knowledgeable are you of what Jean is doing (besides his newsletter)?


Two points about this newsletter:
(1) it is NOT free, he is paid by tournament organizers, who are sure to be getting that back from tournament entry fees, thus the newsletter is paid for by the average Jacques who enters Quebec tournaments. It may be free for Kerry Liles and others outside of Quebec, but I would bet that's an unintended consequence.

(2) a newsletter with games analysis does nothing to grow chess in Canada. That is my opinion, but if you disagree, please explain in detail what you think it does for chess growth. And then explain why, if it's so good for chess growth and Jean is for chess growth in CANADA, why he doesn't take a few hours extra time to do it in English? Something like that could actually go far to convincing people outside Quebec that Jean really does care about chess growth in Canada.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Hypocrite

Well, thank you. I suspected all along that behind that wall of bad faith there was nothing but admiration for me.

That interpretation could only be a language problem. No one could be THAT delusional.

[David Ottosen]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

If the CFC's existence is in danger it is certainly not for its overdeveloped concern for its junior or elite players...everybody should be concerned about creating a richer chess life that will not only assure the survival but also the growth of chess. That include among other things sponsored events and national championships, clubs with multiple activities for its members including teaching, training and coaching sessions, (not just competitions which wears off even the most hardened warriors), seminars to form coaches, arbiters and better organizers, etc. This is what chess and chess clubs are all about in other parts of the world, why should it be different here if we want chess to grow ?

First off, "if" is a pretty optimistic way to describe the danger facing the CFC's existence. I'd say it's very real.

Second, I have no doubts that in other areas of the world, where chess is part of the sporting culture, a different method can be used to grow or sustain chess. That is not the case in Canada. We have no chess in the sporting culture, you (despite being one of probably the top 5 players Canada has ever produced and the current champion) are unknown to the average person, and we have very limited financial and human resources to support the game. They cannot be used poorly.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

If half the energy spent on attacks on others on this board were redirected toward legitimate chess-related activities, the game we all enjoy would be better off here in Canada...

Hi Kerry,

I spent my afternoon working on making correspondence chess game moves, writing on the message board and thinking about the joys of life. As someone around the age of 70, I more and more appreciate a warm room, a correspondence chess game, a snooze on a rainy Sunday afternoon, and a good article about global warming.

Thinking back, I wonder if we had internet back in the 70's, if I'd have been roasted on the message boards for the club policy of all the members also having to be CFC members.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

If half the energy spent on attacks on others on this board were redirected toward legitimate chess-related activities, the game we all enjoy would be better off here in Canada...

Exactly my point actually. Jean does make an important contribution with his newsletter, agreed. I don't speak French, so I haven't seen it. But I will trust reliable sources that it is excellent. My criticism would be that his criticism is absolute. To say that the CFC has no programs is ridiculous.

What of the CYCC program to encourage the youth. What of the efforts every 2 years to send the Olympic teams. These programs support the youth and the elite players, two groups Jean claims there is no support for! Sure we all wish more could be done. But who is going to pay for it! :(

Thankfully we do have a national rating system and a quality newsletter, two programs that benefit all including average Joe chessplayer (who's paying for everything). :)

And attacking local chess organizers and clubs for not making chess popular in Canada, give me a break.

Constructive criticism is fine. But it must be balanced and fair. The organizers and clubs of today can hardly be held responsible for the lost opportunities of several decades. Constant unrelenting criticism only drives organizers away.:(

[Kerry Liles]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

All that after describing chess players as introverted dwellers of basements.:(

Geez, nothing nice to say about anybody...:(:(

Thank goodness we have PB to defend us poor beleaguered organizers :) otherwise we might become discouraged.

But seriously, you want sponsored events! Well for the elite players anyway, most tournaments are sponsored. The sponsors are all the average Joe chessplayers who pay the freight with their entry fees and memberships. :)

I think Jean makes some excellent points; it seems hard for me as a non-master to even appreciate whatever organization issues there are in upper-class chess, but I agree with Jean when he points out that the CFC does not have programs in place. The CFC is a bureaucracy that is obsessed with maintaining the status quo. There is always much ado about nothing and nothing to do with CHESS or CHESS tournaments or organizing or promotion.

One thing I would echo from another poster elsewhere: Jean is actually DOING something... it is possible to complain that it isn't enough, but one cannot complain he is doing nothing. I subscribe to his very fine weekly journal and even though my French is abysmal, I work hard at trying to follow the analysis he provides (for FREE!).

If half the energy spent on attacks on others on this board were redirected toward legitimate chess-related activities, the game we all enjoy would be better off here in Canada...

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

If the CFC's existence is in danger..........................It has no program to speak of to support or develop either of these categories. The other problems lay on the shoulders of clubs and local organizers, not on the CFC's...........

All that after describing chess players as introverted dwellers of basements.:(

Geez, nothing nice to say about anybody...:(:(

Thank goodness we have PB to defend us poor beleaguered organizers :) otherwise we might become discouraged.

But seriously, you want sponsored events! Well for the elite players anyway, most tournaments are sponsored. The sponsors are all the average Joe chessplayers who pay the freight with their entry fees and memberships. :)

[Jean Hébert]

Re: $ 400 in 5 hours work !!

You're right - they have always existed, and always will exist. I cannot say the same for the CFC if it doesn't realize that those are the people it should cater to, not the latest junior of the week to reach 2400 that will be quitting chess at age 19 (or staying at 2400 for 25 years complaining about how chess organizers are the problem).

If the CFC's existence is in danger it is certainly not for its overdeveloped concern for its junior or elite players! Pretending otherwise don't even come close to the facts. It has no program to speak of to support or develop either of these categories. The other problems lay on the shoulders of clubs and local organizers, not on the CFC's. But everybody should be concerned about creating a richer chess life that will not only assure the survival but also the growth of chess. That include among other things sponsored events and national championships, clubs with multiple activities for its members including teaching, training and coaching sessions, (not just competitions which wears off even the most hardened warriors), seminars to form coaches, arbiters and better organizers, etc. This is what chess and chess clubs are all about in other parts of the world, why should it be different here if we want chess to grow ?

Another not easily acceptable statement for a logical and moderately intelligent mind is your complaining at the same time about people quitting chess and about those sticking around "complaining". Of course those who quit for good never complains. But among those sticking around (and even the PBs who only stick around the messages boards) everybody is "complaining" one way or another. And fair complaining is good for those in charge who want to make a better job and improve things. It is just that a few people have knowledge, experience and vision to base their observations and criticisms, while most don't.

About this 2400 thing I must correct you: I have been staying around it for more than 30 years, not 25. Is this good or bad ? Probably very good for two reasons. First nowadays chessplayers reach their peak at an early age (early twenties) and start declining slowly afterwards. So the tendancy over such a long period is to see one's playing strenght DECLINE, with a few rare exceptions... In my case the current FIDE rating is now at its highest since 2001...
Secondly if my rating has not manage to reach new heights durant those 30 years+ it can be easily explained by the fact that I have NEVER been a professionnel player, not even by a long shot. And during those 30 years many professionnals have seen their strenght decline, which is of course perfectly natural and certainly not a cause for your criticism.