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Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification
"why is it apparently so hard for the CFC to set clear criteria (and process) and then actually *adhere* to them??"
One reason is that they already long ago set a precedent of changing their rules retroactively when they didn't like the resulting team (1974). A rigid system based on ratings can not take into account unforeseen circumstances like a qualifying player getting cancer (2000). Therefore the Selection committee should hold the trumps in an ideal formula. Injecting a lot of ever-more-detailed rules will not improve the situation.
Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification
Originally posted by Laurentiu GrigorescuView Post
When looking at the list of candidates above, one may notice that between Pascal's rating and Eric's rating are less than 50 points difference. How significant is this?
Very significant. At this level gaining 50 points is quite a lot of work. I would say to be more precise:
5 points = insignificant;
20 points = significant
over 40= very significant
Very significant. At this level gaining 50 points is quite a lot of work. I would say to be more precise:
5 points = insignificant;
20 points = significant
over 40= very significant
Jean is quite right. But I am assuming he is talking about FIDE ratings. Those averages posted are mainly bloated with inflated CFC ratings(including mine). That is why I am even more puzzled by the decisions. Any serious player with high-level ambitions will consider FIDE rating as more important(if not 10x more), and when evaluating different players for the Olympiad team, FIDE rating should definitely take precedent.
That is why I am even more puzzled by the decisions. Any serious player with high-level ambitions will consider FIDE rating as more important(if not 10x more), and when evaluating different players for the Olympiad team, FIDE rating should definitely take precedent.
Doesn't that depend (to some degree) on the relative veracity of the ratings (number of rated games)? If a rating is based on a relatively small sample of games, maybe it is not as accurate as one would hope? Perhaps this is a moot point for the class of player we are talking about, but what if an IM (for example) had a FIDE rating based on only 20 games, but a CFC or USCF rating based on hundreds?
One could also argue that long time ratings (like National ratings) are deflated due to years of recovering from any initial low rating...
Last edited by Kerry Liles; Monday, 31st May, 2010, 03:18 PM.
Reason: typos; clarification
Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification
Many Canadian players have almost no FIDE rated activity.
Can we get your promise today that should you ever qualify for an Olympiad team for a reason other then FIDE rating you will decline your nomination. Such a promise would add some legitimacy and credibility to your complaints on this site. Of course, if you win a decent Canadian Closed like Noritsyn did that's a good enough reason to be selected anyways in my opinion.
Last edited by Duncan Smith; Monday, 31st May, 2010, 03:48 PM.
I think that IF there is no specific Handbook section dealing with this issue of " declines " ( as opposed to withdrawals ), the spirit of the initial selection process should be honoured - the bulk by rating.
According to 1204. Timing
"Each scheduled step shall be completed before the next step is taken"
b) says the players will be selected
c) says the players will be notified
d) says the players will accept/decline
If step d) fails, it seems illogical that anything other than a return to step b, and a revisiting of 1206b:
The National Team shall consist of five players, as follows:
(i) The Canadian Champion, as of 180 days before the start of the Olympiad.
(ii) The three highest rated players on the Selection Rating list.
(iii) One player decided upon by the Selection Committee.
The rules and comments that I've seen would say that at the moment 2 were properly selected by rating
Agreed
and 3 by selection committee.
Not properly, IMHO. And one of the three was not on the selection committee list (see first post in this thread).
Given that the current format is *supposed* to be 1+3+1, exactly what happens if the current Canadian Champion (Jean Hebert in this case) declines? Does that spot go to the rating list or to the selection committee. My own view is that it should go to the selection committee.
You could also entertain going to the 2nd place in the Canadian Championship. Some would rank that ahead of going to the selection committee.
Ken Craft posted a Governors' motion which was passed a few years ago, with crucial components:
Option Two:3 players from the Selection Rating List and 1 player chosen by the Selection Committee
...
Tie vote broken by the President–Option 2 passes.
The Handbook section that this was amending, if the CFC website is to be believed, did not have any provision for choosing any player in the event that an invitation was declined. The closest it comes to addressing that question is:
1211. Withdrawals
Once all members of the Canadian Delegation to the Olympiad have be determined:
(a) If a player withdraws, he or she shall be replaced by the next player on the Selection Rating List.
Or maybe that's what "withdrawal" means: to be named yet decline. Anyway, this and other precedents tend to point in the same direction.
Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification
Well there's always the clear criteria: Canadian Champion + 4 by selection committee, and if Cdn Champ declines go down the list of the Closed in order.
Not sure how well that would go over, but at least we wouldn't have to be nitpicking rules every time. Don't forget, the rules are as hard to comprehend for those in charge as they are for everyone here!
Many Canadian players have almost no FIDE rated activity.
Can we get your promise today that should you ever qualify for an Olympiad team for a reason other then FIDE rating you will decline your nomination. Such a promise would add some legitimacy and credibility to your complaints on this site. Of course, if you win a decent Canadian Closed like Noritsyn did that's a good enough reason to be selected anyways in my opinion.
Hi Duncan,
Firstly, we are talking about sending the best possible team to the Olympics. You cannot compare with your average club player. I won't bother explaining to you why FIDE rating applies more significantly to this sort of event and to the players involved as I think you already know. Secondly, you can get a promise from me that starting from the 2012 Olympiad onwards, if I ever get invited to the team, I will decline unless I am a GM by then.
Last edited by Eric Hansen; Monday, 31st May, 2010, 05:52 PM.
Secondly, you can get a promise from me that starting from the 2012 Olympiad onwards, if I ever get invited to the team, I will decline unless I am a GM.
Eric, Don't be hasty. It's a good opportunity. If you're playing well it's a good chance to showcase your play and get further opportunities.
When you become a GM then you might want to consider if you really want to play on a weak team.
I won't bother explaining to you why FIDE rating applies more significantly to this sort of event and to the players involved ...
That's nice, but perhaps you can explain it to the rest of us. It sounds like you would like to rely completely upon a FIDE rating for anybody to represent Canada in the Olympiad.
That's nice, but perhaps you can explain it to the rest of us. It sounds like you would like to rely completely upon a FIDE rating for anybody to represent Canada in the Olympiad.
Steve
The people in the selection process know what I'm talking about and so do the players involved. I don't feel like replying to someone who is ignoring the hole in Duncan's logic and tries to nitpick my pretty accurate response. The "many" players that Duncan is referring to are indeed mainly club players who enjoy the game but have no FIDE ambitions. In Canada you would need a commitment greater than that normally if you wish to obtain a FIDE rating.
Last edited by Eric Hansen; Tuesday, 1st June, 2010, 05:00 AM.
You could also entertain going to the 2nd place in the Canadian Championship. Some would rank that ahead of going to the selection committee.
That would certainly make some sense, although there might be some issues if there was no clear second-place finisher, given that the current format is a Swiss.
Or maybe that's what "withdrawal" means: to be named yet decline. Anyway, this and other precedents tend to point in the same direction.
I would think that "decline" would mean the obvious: they are asked to be on the team, given a reasonable amount of time to decide, and choose to not be on the team. A "withdrawal" on the other hand would presumably refer to someone who accepts the invitation but then subsequently withdraws (changes their mind, conflicting obligation comes up, their passport is eaten by the family dog, etc.).
Well there's always the clear criteria: Canadian Champion + 4 by selection committee, and if Cdn Champ declines go down the list of the Closed in order.
Not sure how well that would go over, but at least we wouldn't have to be nitpicking rules every time.
The problem would become: who is selected (and by whom!!) to be on the selection committee ? How many ontarians or non-ontarians, how many Hébert' "minions" if any :), how many from the west if any, all "strong" players or not and how strong ?
For example I strongly suspect that with a selection committee made of let say, PB, Duncan Smith, Victor Plotkin and Vlad, Jean Hébert would not stand much of a chance to make any team, regardless of rating or current performances. Anyone for a poll on this ? :)
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