Hypothetical political platform

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

Your 5 points are mostly out of control of the government's reach.
...

I'm not sure I agree with that. I have some admiration for the Federal Cons Economic Action Plan, for example, although I don't know every detail of how they are implementing it. Take Infrastructure, for example. Putting people to work on that is a tried and true short term recipe for employment gains used by governments in the past, while in the long term improving a nation's infrastructure naturally has a payoff for both businesses and citizens.

The recent announced Infrastructure spending is controversial because half of it went to Quebec (Montreal). I wouldn't argue too much with that, though, since it is badly needed there because important existing infrastructure (e.g. bridges) have been falling apart. That has a lot to do with the Mafia in Montreal, in that shoddy construction/materials were used long ago. I don't know if the Cons are planning on doing it, but if the fictional Iced Tea Party of Canada were in charge, we'd do the Infrastructure spending there in conjunction with Justice Department spending, in cracking down on the Mafia at every stage of construction. We may not completely succeed in busting their @$$e$, but the heat would be on them enough for them to know that they should think twice before pulling a stunt like that again, and pi$$ing everybody off.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

...
[fifth update: Given the great practical difficulties of trying to change the constitution of Canada in a big way, at least all at once (as demonstrated by the failed attempts of Meech Lake and Charlettown, for example), the fictional Iced Tea Party of Canada sees making constutional changes by way of federal referendum questions as an attractive (though perhaps much slower) solution to national issues that may need to be addressed over time via such changes. Below is a link outlining what would be involved in such a process (which has been used before, though seldom). Certainly our party would be interested in having constitutional experts look for such means for the Canadian populace to vote on moving away from mandatory or enforced aspects of multi-culturalism.]

http://www.elections.ca/res/eim/arti...=e&frmPageSize

One thing the Iced Tea Party would not be interested in is holding a national referendum on having a proportional representation electoral system federally, unlike the federal NDP's stance on this issue in the relatively recent past. Referendums on having such a system have been held in more than one province in the not too distant past, and each time voters rejected the idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...ferendum,_2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario...ferendum,_2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_...ferendum,_2005

Here's another link, discussing Canadian referendums concerning any number of issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Canada

[Joel Stainer]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03...ey-grow-older/

The majority of young people (let's say under 40?) don't vote. The Baby Boomers control the elections, politics is disgusting, and most of us in that age group are too busy doing other things that actually matter to us and we can make a difference with, to waste our time voting.

I'd have to check, but I would guess the % of people in that age group who volunteer is probably higher than the voter turnout %, and volunteering is a much bigger time commitment. It's not about not caring about Canada, it's about a system that is a total joke and a waste of time.

The excellent thing for the Boomers is they will get their way in the elections whether young people vote or not, due to sheer numbers. They should be happy that us young folks are doing other things with our lives! :)

Really though, a party that focused on actually talking about issues (instead of attack ads), was willing to actually represent people (instead of party lines), and injected real accountablility into politics (there is zero across all party lines currently), would stand a chance of getting those voters back at least a little bit in the future. I doubt it would make a difference right now though since the political landscape has next to no chance of being influenced by anyone other than the Boomer demographic for a long time now.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

I remember a young lady interviewed on the news a while back. Gushing, she said about Justin Trudeau "He totally gets us". Seems to me that's where much of the youth vote will go this coming election.

Depending on how one defines baby boomers, they are seniors now. Many are also disgusted, at least from what I can see on this message board alone. Middle aged voters like me I view as a seperate block, with its own weight of numbers. In any case, in my view it's every voter's duty to choose the least evil option when voting. When I was young, I was unaware of how even municipal election results can really hose the average citizen. Many young people today spend countless hours texting, etc., so besides time spent towards the need to start a life, many use their spare time frivolously, like many youth have done since the beginning of time.

In the last Ontario election the PC leader Hudak talked about some issues, but he did it foolishly. He talked about the need to cut 100,000 public sector jobs (but didn't even bother to emphasize many would be by attrition). The Libs didn't say they would do the same, but just attacked the figure, and succeeded in destroying Hudak on that basis alone. Now, AFTER the election, they are going to need to do the same, and likely planned to do so all along. Hudak also promised new jobs, but had a fantasy figure of 1,000,000 of such. He spent minimal time criticising the Libs rotten, shady record. I don't mind that kind of negative data being put out, besides also having substantial statements of what one's own party is going to do on any number of vital issues if elected.

[Joel Stainer]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

Some youth will vote Liberal/NDP/Cons/Green, but the stats say that the majority won't vote peripd. Youth have figured out that their time is more valuable than it is assumed to be by politicians and so they find other worthy things to do.

For every young person texting etc, there are many other volunteering their time, actively engaged in sports, and in other wonderful activities. Older folks may be disgusted but they will still vote along dusty old political lines, maybe because that's just what they have always done, and also perhaps due to a sense of obligation since they are closer in years to some of the wars that were fought. Painting either demographic with a broad brush (lazy texting youngin's, or crotchety old stalwarts) doesn't accurately portray them though as far as I am concerned.

I just think a hypothetical party platform totally misses the point when less than half of the population under 40 even sees voting as a viable way to be a citizen in Canada. Until there is a massive rebuild of trust between the younger generation and the political system I don't see voting numbers heading anywhere but down in the future.

More likely Canada will try and go the Australia route at some point and bring in mandatory voting and then when large groups of people must make a choice to either write Darth Vader on a piece of paper or cough up a fine, there will be many who claim that civil engagement has gone through the roof - when in reality it's just made people decide that they care more about their $40 than about not voting.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

A hypothetical political party platform is a forlorn hope, it's true, but at least with the internet people can read about other people's ideas and values. Who knows, a young person thinking of being involved in politics, or the odd principled politician, might get an idea from it, and run with it. It's like a message in a bottle, who knows what will come of it. In this case the contents are on my CFC blog, and this chesstalk thread. As I wrote earlier, this particular blog entry is getting much more attention (views anyway) than most of my chess (or chess variant) blogs. I had little to lose by putting it 'out there', and a remote chance of much gain for many people in the long run.

I'm not sure most young people ever bothered to pay much attention to politics, but older people try to compensate for any current trust deficit by choosing the least evil, and at least voting (which counts, unlike not voting). If there is no trust whatsoever for a given politician or party, oldsters at least ask themselves, what will their least evil selfish politician/party do to stay in power? The Libs in Ontario have to do nothing: they will continue to hose people on their hydro bills and do shady things in general, because they can get away with it thanks to so many sheep voting for them. Plus, so many of the youth don't bother to vote, or don't know what their hydro bill will be when they start to pay for it themselves. In any case, unless there is widespead return to old fashioned values (i.e. Judao-Christian), we can expect no improvement to the decline in morality overall these days, with hardly any absolute values remaining.

[Joel Stainer]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

I don't think you give younger folks much credit with comments about how they "don't know what their hydro bill will be when they start to pay for it themselves". Then again, I think we'd be on very different pages when it comes to a lot of things since I see the developed world as having made massive gains in the area of morality in recent years, and a need to return to old fashioned values to be about the worst thing that could happen to a country like Canada. Thankfully there's an incredibly small chance of that ever happening.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

I see the developed world as having made massive gains in the area of morality in recent years

Haven't you seen some of the sewage that passes for entertainment and TV commercials these days? What about the wholesale killing of the unborn? Euthanasia in Holland, done at times even without consent of the individual? How about legalized prostitution in parts of the US and Europe (where even bestiality can be serviced at times)? Or runaway substance abuse? Increased cheating by students (thanks to handheld devices and the internet)? Also, IMHO, increased societal levels of narcissism (e.g. 'selfies') and feelings of entitlement (e.g. Ontario's teacher's union, Quebec's austerity measures' protesters). Then there's greedy or corrupt corporations, bankers, traders and governments. Not to mention new types of crimes arising due to the internet alone.

The good news is that it's rarely too late for anyone to repent if they need to. Even after they pass on, I suspect.

[Joel Stainer]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

I see the developed world as having made massive gains in the area of morality in recent years

Haven't you seen some of the sewage that passes for entertainment and TV commercials these days? What about the wholesale killing of the unborn? Euthanasia in Holland, done at times even without consent of the individual? How about legalized prostitution in parts of the US and Europe (where even bestiality can be serviced at times)? Or runaway substance abuse? Increased cheating by students (thanks to handheld devices and the internet)? Also, IMHO, increased societal levels of narcissism (e.g. 'selfies') and feelings of entitlement (e.g. Ontario's teacher's union, Quebec's austerity measures' protesters). Then there's greedy or corrupt corporations, bankers, traders and governments. Not to mention new types of crimes arising due to the internet alone.

The good news is that it's rarely too late for anyone to repent if they need to. Even after they pass on, I suspect.

You're seeing things through your own moral lense, and that's fair, we all do that (myself included).

I'll take women being able to vote, blacks no longer being slaves, and the LGBT population being able to love and marry one another if it means we have a few extra episodes of racy television every night.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

You're seeing things through your own moral lense, and that's fair, we all do that (myself included).

I'll take women being able to vote, blacks no longer being slaves, and the LGBT population being able to love and marry one another if it means we have a few extra episodes of racy television every night.

The bible never said anything about women not voting, or even not being priests for that matter, and it was also against slavery, afaik. Yes, it does specify things about marriage etc., but also talks about forgiveness for all sorts of transgressions. I would note that I have my own views on how accurate past translation sessions of the scriptures may have been, and would also note that clerics are not always above reproach. In any case, racy TV is perhaps one of the least problems I wrote of.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

The bible never said anything about women not voting, or even not being priests for that matter, and it was also against slavery, afaik.

You have read the Bible, right? I'm an atheist and even I know that there are all sorts of mentions of slaves and slavery. Mr. Stainer does bring up a good point about the "good old days". They were indeed good for Christian, white, straight, males. For all other people, maybe not that great.

[Joel Stainer]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

The bible never said anything about women not voting, or even not being priests for that matter, and it was also against slavery, afaik. Yes, it does specify things about marriage etc., but also talks about forgiveness for all sorts of transgressions. I would note that I have my own views on how accurate past translation sessions of the scriptures may have been, and would also note that clerics are not always above reproach. In any case, racy TV is perhaps one of the least problems I wrote of.

Not too interested (in this format) in getting into a discussion on the Bible. I stand by my views that the world is a vastly better place today than it ever has been in history (specifically the Western world), and every time I listen to a history podcast, or read a history book, that belief becomes further cemented.

Either way, I feel society (whether you feel it is for better or for worse) is going to continually move beyond 'the good ole days' and while the boomers are the driving force behind policy, politics, and mostly everything else right now, those days won't last forever (again, some of that is good and some of that is bad). In the meantime the younger crowd has tuned out the older crowd for the most part and is content living their lives in the way in which they feel most happiest doing so. Hopefully we can take the good from those who went before us and leave behind the bad, though history says we're probably doomed to repeat many of the same mistakes!

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

Not too interested (in this format) in getting into a discussion on the Bible. I stand by my views that the world is a vastly better place today than it ever has been in history (specifically the Western world), and every time I listen to a history podcast, or read a history book, that belief becomes further cemented.

Either way, I feel society (whether you feel it is for better or for worse) is going to continually move beyond 'the good ole days' and while the boomers are the driving force behind policy, politics, and mostly everything else right now, those days won't last forever (again, some of that is good and some of that is bad). In the meantime the younger crowd has tuned out the older crowd for the most part and is content living their lives in the way in which they feel most happiest doing so. Hopefully we can take the good from those who went before us and leave behind the bad, though history says we're probably doomed to repeat many of the same mistakes!

Joel, you are to be commended for something remarkable: in just a few short and succinct posts, you exposed the fallacy of Kevin's entire thread. What began as a hypothetical party with various "improve this" and "improve that" policies (with no specifics) quickly degenerated under your influence into what I think we can call the ravings of a far-right religious fanatic. It turns out Kevin wants to "improve society" by even legislating what people can and cannot watch on TV, using "Judao-Christian values" as a guideline! Kevin should book up on his history of the Bible, which is to say, not the history that the Bible describes, but the history of the MAKING of the Bible. I wonder what Kevin would think of the Book of Enoch, for example, which the Church decided was too extreme to make it into the Bible, given the Church's imperatives at the time.

You may not have intended this, but not only did you completely destroy any kind of legitimate political candidacy on the part of Kevin (he is certainly free to run, but winning is quite another matter!), but you also exposed the sham that is politics. Your generation looks at politics in much the same way as the baby boomer generation looked at "the establishment" in the late 1960's. If your generation can be offered any advice, it would be to remember that the baby boomer generation that so controls the politics of today was once just as idealistic and revolutionary -- perhaps more so -- than today's young people. But that generation learned the ultimate lesson of life on Earth. Concepts like "flower power" and "free love" may sound fantastic when you're young, but eventually you come up against the reality: you have to make a living. You just can't escape the pull of money. So if you are currently living free from politics and its influences, enjoy it while you can (and be sure to pay your taxes!), because eventually you'll have to return to the fold. Maybe you can CHANGE politics, but even this is far-fetched. At least you already know that politics is nothing but the art of deception, which this thread of Kevin's has brought home to all of us. Even the Bible supports this idea. After all, isn't it written that the AntiChrist when s/he appears will gain ultimate power through the art of politics and deception? Promising us a world free of tyranny and want, full of peace and understanding and a whole-world government... and the hordes will apparently once again drink the KoolAid.

BTW, just to make clear, I was too young to be part of the "flower power" generation... but I think they came the closest to really changing things here on Earth. The fact that they failed reinforces my belief that humanity on this physical plane isn't ever meant to change, and that any dreams of achieving heaven on Earth via some combination of science, technology, politics and / or economics will never be realized even if dramatic changes do get made. As I wrote to Paul Beckwith a few years ago, this physical plane teaches us one thing only: there is no free lunch. For every positive change we enact, something negative arises... which means, Joel, that all the progress you mention has made society different, but not "better". Some of the things Kevin mentions, such as substance abuse for example, move in to fill any void in negativity.

Having learned that, one can then realize the purpose of the physical plane and why we are here.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

You have read the Bible, right? I'm an atheist and even I know that there are all sorts of mentions of slaves and slavery. Mr. Stainer does bring up a good point about the "good old days". They were indeed good for Christian, white, straight, males. For all other people, maybe not that great.

Moses and the Exodus is the main example of anti-slavery in the bible I'm thinking of.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Hypothetical political platform

Paul, Joel asked for better politicians to vote for. I told him my opinion of the changes to current societal attitudes I personally thought it would take. Like I thought I alluded to earlier in this thread, I seperate my own religious views (e.g. on accounting for current social behaviors) from what I thought might perhaps make for an interesting political platform, in whole or in part, at least for some people.