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With Système Suisse Accéléré Degréssif, you don't neutralize the ghost points all at once, but gradually over rounds 3-8, using two methods. It's an issue that arose in 1976, and it has been solved.
Edit: I should make clear that (S)SAD still has the yo-yo effect of a normal Swiss System. It just doesn't have any increased yo-yo effect when the acceleration comes off, because the acceleration doesn't come off all at once.
in your opinion what is ideal? would it be simple enough to group the participants in groups of 10 and doing a RR and working out some sort of prize structure based on that? since it would be a 10 person RR there would be some norms at the top levels but the 10th/20th/30th person would be happier with their norm chances than the 11th/21st/31st person.
norms and prizes by section and always playing someone in your rating group...only people who are severely underrated would be penalized by this, but they should win their group anyways...no chance for the 1600 to play a GM but there's always lots of simuls.
Does anybody saved the pairings of the second and the third rounds? (I have the third without ghost points on paper
Hi Egidijus:
I don't have the second round but here are the third round pairings with ghost points (and *wrong* ghost points for a lot of players as far as I can tell). Top 100 boards:
Bd White Black
1 GM Eduardas Rozentalis (2631 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) FM Aman Hambleton (2315 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
2 GM Luke McShane (2624 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) Andrew Picana (2117 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
3 Jingle A. Kho (2120 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) IM Artiom Samsonkin (2609 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
4 GM Merab Gagunashvili (2596 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) Erwin Casareno (2105 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
5 GM Joshua Friedel (2527 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) Jamin Gluckie (2096 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
6 Aaron Wu (2030 : b : 2.0 [3.0]) IM Tomas Krnan (2484 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
7 Dezheng Kong (2006 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) FM Vladimir Pechenkin (2432 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
8 FM Bindi Cheng (2426 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) Nick Karlow (2012 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
9 Vladimir Drkulec (2038 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) GM Harikrishna Pentala (2678 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
10 Tanraj S. Sohal (2094 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) IM Leonid Gerzhoy (2630 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
11 Konstantin Semianiuk (2041 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) GM Alexander Shabalov (2578 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
12 Brendan Fan (2015 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) IM Nikolay Noritsyn (2536 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
13 IM David Cummings (2482 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) Daniel Abrahams (2093 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
14 IM Michael Mulyar (2405 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) Yevgeni Nahutin (2083 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
15 FM Vinny Puri (2326 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) Jesse B Wang (2072 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
16 Richard Wang (2318 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) Ralph Gregorz (2048 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
17 Wojtek Fulmyk (2012 : W : 1.5 [2.5]) FM Dale Haessel (2316 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
18 FM Adam Ashton (2316 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) Eric Bennett (1990 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
19 FM Alex Betaneli (2312 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) David Itkin (1966 : B : 1.5 [2.5])
20 Keith MacKinnon (2280 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) Mike Ivanov (1928 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
21 Ted Kret (2165 : w : 1.5 [2.5]) John Doknjas (1896 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
22 GM Vladimir Malaniuk (2551 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Helmut Fritzsche (2005 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
23 Alan Gregg (2000 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) FM John C. [Jack] Yoos (2461 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
24 Roman Sapozhnikov (2434 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Dalia Kagramanov (1998 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
25 Daniel Wiebe (1973 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Alexander Martchenko (2382 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
26 James Fu (1978 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Laszlo Bekefi (2376 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
27 FM Michael Barron (2375 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Derick Joshua Twesigye (1990 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
28 Jordan Palmer (1959 : - : 1.0 [2.0]) Zi Yi [Joey] Qin (2340 : BB : 1.0 [2.0])
29 Sean Rachar (1951 : b : 1.0 [2.0]) Stanimir Ilic (2340 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
30 Anthony Cheron (1949 : - : 1.0 [2.0]) Yuri Aronov (2301 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
31 Simon Gladstone (1946 : b : 1.0 [2.0]) FM Kevin Gentes (2254 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
32 Robert Roller (1937 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Bernd Wagner (2253 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
33 Lawrence Cohen (2031 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Sankalp Modwal (2242 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
34 Laurent Allard (1934 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Michael Kleinman (2233 : BB : 1.0 [2.0])
35 Ian Finlay (1926 : W : 1.0 [2.0]) Lorne Yee (2222 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
36 David Filipovich (2218 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Pierre Maheux (1897 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
37 John W Chidley-Hill (1897 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Paul Gelis (2216 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
38 Ilia Bluvshtein (2216 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Alex T. Ferreira (2054 : w : 1.0 [2.0])
39 Ismail Ibrahim (2062 : b : 1.0 [2.0]) Jonathon Zaczek (2179 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
40 Mikhail Egorov (2179 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Rod Hill (1934 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
41 Kit-Sun Ng (2062 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Yuriy Kryvoshlyk (2178 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
42 Stephen Fairbairn (2073 : b : 1.0 [2.0]) Bob Holliman (2165 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
43 Felix Barrios (2162 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Ken Kurkowski (1616 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
44 Alan J. Walton (2152 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Bradley J. Willis (2122 : b : 1.0 [2.0])
45 Maxim Dudkin (2108 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Ralf Ostermeier (2102 : w : 1.0 [2.0])
46 Alexandru Florea (2076 : w : 1.0 [2.0]) Henry Gonzalez (1077 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
47 Matthew Scott (1506 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Ferdinand Supsup (1851 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
48 Ed Zator (1835 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Tian Lan (1510 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
49 Pino Verde (1800 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Bryant Yang (1500 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
50 Jack Maguire (1513 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Bruce Dowling (1796 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
51 Genadi Medvedev (1628 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Samir El-Gohary (1541 : b : 2.0 [2.0])
52 Razvan Preotu (1606 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Jatinder Dhaliwal (1577 : B : 2.0 [2.0])
53 Patrick Yu (1572 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) Mei Chen Lee (1552 : w : 2.0 [2.0])
54 Arthur Calugar (2372 : b : 0.5 [1.5]) Milan Zagar (1941 : B : 0.5 [1.5])
55 Paul Leblanc (1907 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) FM Michael Dougherty (2322 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
56 Kevin Chung (2280 : W : 0.5 [1.5]) Rene Preotu (1907 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
57 FM Hans Jung (2270 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Sadiq Juma (1900 : B : 0.5 [1.5])
58 Jim Paterson (1889 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) FM Brett Campbell (2268 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
59 Nikita Gusev (2266 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Kyle Morrison (2228 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
60 Thomas R. Rehmeier (1795 : w : 1.5 [1.5]) William G. Doubleday (2206 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
61 Ian Loadman (2202 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) David Miller (1871 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
62 Ruperto Frilles (2168 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Yves Ber (1914 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
63 Elias Oussedik (2154 : b : 0.5 [1.5]) David Southam (2165 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
64 Gordon Olheiser (2142 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Branislav Rajsic (1782 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
65 Mavros Whissell (2120 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Frank O'Brien (1744 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
66 Ian Aird (2019 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Jack Ding (1646 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
67 Peter Bokhout (1992 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Joey Orozco (1585 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
68 Andre Zybura (1989 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) John Young (1579 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
69 WCM Alexandra Botez (1963 : w : 0.5 [1.5]) Robert Bzikot (1984 : b : 0.5 [1.5])
70 Alex Lambruschini (1744 : w : 1.5 [1.5]) Sam Haziprodromu (1950 : w : 0.5 [1.5])
71 Arjun Bharat (1841 : b : 1.5 [1.5]) David Poirier (1855 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
72 Robert J. Armstrong (1800 : w : 1.5 [1.5]) Dinesh Dattani (1392 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
73 Mark Jubenville (1783 : w : 1.5 [1.5]) Jack Triefeldt (1791 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
74 Kyle France (1529 : w : 1.5 [1.5]) Tom Muir (1530 : b : 1.5 [1.5])
75 IM Lawrence Day (2304 : w : 0.0 [1.0]) Zehn Nasir (1667 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
76 Jack Mo (1662 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Bill Peng (2254 : w : 0.0 [1.0])
77 WIM Dina Kagramanov (2226 : w : 0.0 [1.0]) John R. Brown (1648 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
78 Peter Xie (1629 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Kevin Mo (2193 : b : 0.0 [1.0])
79 Greg Stavropoulos (2087 : w : 0.0 [1.0]) Doug Sly (1628 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
80 Stephan Tonakanian (1990 : w : 0.0 [1.0]) Reuben McCleary (1597 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
81 Pepin Manalo (1932 : b : 0.0 [1.0]) Louis Cheng (1975 : b : 0.0 [1.0])
82 Henry Cajina (1544 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Ruokai [David] Li (1932 : w : 0.0 [1.0])
83 Marguerite Yang (1540 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Ben Olden-Cooligan (1888 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
84 Kajan Thanabalachandran (1530 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Paul Stephens (1882 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
85 Natasa Serbanescu (1880 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Bruce W. Thomson (1566 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
86 Oleg Tseluiko (1874 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Andrew Philip (1556 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
87 Ralph Deline (1869 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Ted Termeer (1546 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
88 Daniel Muntaner (1497 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Michael Song (1866 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
89 Lali Agbabishvili (1860 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Alex De Cal (1532 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
90 Dmitry Chernik (1855 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Claudio Sottile (1516 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
91 Stephen Lipic (1845 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Andre Siegel (1477 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
92 Jiaxin Liu (1460 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Jaime Solis (1825 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
93 Julian McRoberts (1439 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Alex H Chan (1820 : B : 1.0 [1.0])
94 Michael Zaghi (1817 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) James Mourgelas (1436 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
95 Daniel Coren (1430 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Jackie Peng (1800 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
96 Juliaan Posaratnanathan (1768 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Zhanna Sametova (1428 : B : 1.0 [1.0])
97 James Law (1390 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Philip G. Haley (1766 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
98 Steven Faust (1758 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Colin B. Archibald (1364 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
99 Jesus Vera (1345 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) William George (1757 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
Re: Canadian Chess Open Championship: Pairing Issues
Sorry. That was only the top 99 :) Here's the rest:
Bd White Black
100 Chris White (1754 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Isaac Andrade (1354 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
101 Louisa Qianqian Hou (1256 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Larry Castle (1734 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
102 Greg Beal (1728 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Paul Radelicki (1317 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
103 Yue Tong [Davy] Zhao (1228 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Jonathan Lai (1727 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
104 Michael Perez (1716 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Eric Song (1308 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
105 Nathan Farrant-Diaz (1716 : W : 1.0 [1.0]) Daniel Molev (1239 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
106 Michael Gomes (964 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Mario Moran-Venegas (1704 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
107 Kevin K. W. Wang (793 : W : 1.0 [1.0]) Brian Sullivan (1681 : w : 1.0 [1.0])
108 Victor Okon (0 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Doug Gillis (1680 : b : 1.0 [1.0])
109 Ralf Köber (0 : WW : 1.0 [1.0]) Slobodan Petrovic (1676 : w : 1.0 [1.0])
110 Peter [Piotr] Pisanski (1622 : w : 1.0 [1.0]) Charles Bowles (1591 : w : 1.0 [1.0])
111 Ernesto Villaluz (1158 : - : 1.0 [1.0]) Alex Rapoport (1838 : B : 0.5 [0.5])
112 Roy Posaratnanathan (1731 : W : 0.5 [0.5]) Joe Yalkezian (1688 : w : 0.5 [0.5])
113 Joe Bellomo (1715 : w : 0.5 [0.5]) Grisha Crnilovic (1647 : w : 0.5 [0.5])
114 Joel Hutchinson (1645 : w : 0.5 [0.5]) Norman Devine (1695 : b : 0.5 [0.5])
115 Tiberiu Andronescu (1396 : w : 0.5 [0.5]) Jose Cabioc (1738 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
116 Michael D. Sharpe (1726 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) John Mangold (1398 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
117 Stephen Yu (1314 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Vilas Karmalkar (1716 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
118 Mark Law (1226 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Lawrence Garcia (1711 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
119 Bryan Morgan (1700 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Benjamin Blium (1096 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
120 Joseph Sy (1694 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Rick McCleary (1095 : w : 0.0 [0.0])
121 Matthew Perez (1012 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Gheorghe Buzila (1694 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
122 Steven Sokalsky (0 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Richard Marks (1632 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
123 Henry Grayson (1580 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Eric Wang (992 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
124 Jessica Danti (0 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Michael Rogers (1576 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
125 Hugo Ortiz (1560 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) Mike Hunnersen (0 : b : 0.0 [0.0])
Shafkat Ali (1688 : b : 0.0 [0.0]) BYE
Ken Le (1700 : B : 0.5 [0.5]) BYE
Giuseppe Del Duca (1362 : w : 2.0 [2.0]) BYE
Wayne Siu (1449 : b : 2.0 [2.0]) BYE
Dan Rotaru (1900 : b : 1.0 [2.0]) BYE
Mariano A. Acosta (2253 : w : 0.0 [1.0]) BYE
Caesar Posylek (1708 : w : 0.0 [0.0]) BYE
Ferdinand Cale (1806 : b : 1.0 [1.0]) BYE
I don't have the second round but here are the third round pairings with ghost points (and *wrong* ghost points for a lot of players as far as I can tell). Top 100 boards:
How these ghost points work here I have no clue and I have lived through quite a few accelerated pairings. But regardless these are awful pairings for a 3rd round when it comes to rating differences. I too would have been totally devastated if I had been there...
How these ghost points work here I have no clue and I have lived through quite a few accelerated pairings. But regardless these are awful pairings for a 3rd round when it comes to rating differences. I too would have been totally devastated if I had been there...
The problem with the 3rd round was the pairings were done wrong, so it set the results back several rounds.
How these ghost points work here I have no clue and I have lived through quite a few accelerated pairings. But regardless these are awful pairings for a 3rd round when it comes to rating differences. I too would have been totally devastated if I had been there...
Hi Jean:
Every time I look at it, it looks like more of a mess. The number in square brackets is supposed to indicate the "score" including ghost points. Yet several people were seemingly given additional ghost points between round 1 and round 3. Either that or ghost points were removed from some players but not others.
In theory, the top boards for round 3 should have been those in the initial top quartile of players (62 according to the round 1 pairings with the lowest rating of the top quartile being 2152) who also won both of their first two games. That should leave a *maximum* of 15 to 16 players with a score of "3" (2 real plus 1 ghost) after round 2.
Yet you can see from the pairings that there are 17, of whom 8 are *below* 2152. Where did they suddenly come from?
The pairings below the top boards are even worse as Matthew Scott has noted elsewhere in this thread.
Steve
P.S. This is what the top board pairings *should* have been for round 3 (ignoring colour needs):
Bd White Black
1 GM Eduardas Rozentalis (2631 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) GM Joshua Friedel (2527 : w : 2.0 [3.0])
2 GM Luke McShane (2624 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) IM Tomas Krnan (2484 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
3 IM Artiom Samsonkin (2609 : b : 2.0 [3.0]) FM Vladimir Pechenkin (2432 : b : 2.0 [3.0])
4 GM Merab Gagunashvili (2596 : w : 2.0 [3.0]) FM Bindi Cheng (2426 : w : 2.0 [3.0])
5 FM Aman Hambleton (2315 : b : 2.0 [3.0]) GM Harikrishna Pentala (2678 : b : 1.5 [2.5])
Last edited by Steve Douglas; Thursday, 15th July, 2010, 10:32 AM.
Reason: Add the "P.S."
How these ghost points work here I have no clue and I have lived through quite a few accelerated pairings. But regardless these are awful pairings for a 3rd round when it comes to rating differences. I too would have been totally devastated if I had been there...
Definitely you should play in the "I have no clue of Accelerated pairings" section in your next tournament!
IMHO, ironically the round 3 was the best for the rating difference: there are more games below 200.
That's because Round 3 was paired WRONGLY, and so the rating differences were smaller. The issue though is this removed one of the points of the accelerated pairings (namely: to correct players playing outside their level), and it also paired players in inverse order at some places (i.e. 46-53).
in your opinion what is ideal? would it be simple enough to group the participants in groups of 10 and doing a RR and working out some sort of prize structure based on that? since it would be a 10 person RR there would be some norms at the top levels but the 10th/20th/30th person would be happier with their norm chances than the 11th/21st/31st person.
norms and prizes by section and always playing someone in your rating group...only people who are severely underrated would be penalized by this, but they should win their group anyways...no chance for the 1600 to play a GM but there's always lots of simuls.
Allow me to get even more general. The main chances for top Canadian players to flex their chess muscles outside the context of a weekend Swiss are in Alberta and Quebec. Otherwise, there are no norm events. The Canadian Open has a serious one-game-per-day schedule, and one way or another, the organizers of each one bring in grandmasters. Resources vary, but let's say the average is 9 GMs and the cost a few tens of thousands of dollars. With 9 GMs, one could have run three GM norm tournaments... my main motivation has been to avoid wasting this golden opportunity.
There are several ways to make it work. I think that the organizer of the Canadian Open should be free to choose whichever way he wants. Even a one-section unaccelerated Swiss, though if the same organizer starts talking about "norm opportunities", I reserve the right to call him on it.
Your suggestion of RRs, let's call it Congress-style, has lots of great history, though not much of it recently in North America. It might work, but taking the devil's advocate position:
To create norm opportunities, you'd want to mix the sections (if the A group were composed of simply 10 GMs, there would be no norm); which section winner would become Canadian Open Champion?
An organizer might not want to take a risk on a formula so different from what we're used to.
My preferred solution? Run the Canadian Open in sections. If you have as few as 2 sections (Winnipeg 1986), you'd want to use Haley Accelerated Pairings. But it could be a Class tournament with 5 or more sections. Advantages: norms, standard (approved by FIDE) pairing methods, no yo-yo effect. This is the gold standard, much though I value creativity.
A slight variation would be the incorporation of the Canadian Closed (possibly an international tournament with foreign GMs competing hors concours) at the same venue. Central to this setup would be the idea of running a really good Canadian Closed, sharing the resources that a Canadian Open seems able to mobilize. If the Closed is just an afterthought, move on.
If you must run it as a single section, the 2003 Kapuskasing method (revised), if you can find a TD with a masochistic streak (there is no computer program).
I respect the system used in Cappelle-la-Grande, but it still has the yo-yo effect. You will notice that the system used at the 2007 Canadian Open is not near the top of my list. That's a long story--and don't believe everything you read.
Gosh, I got through that without using the term simul fodder.
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