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Shrug, you can put me in the minority, but I think the complainer here has a case. He followed the correct procedure and asked the TD to look at a game that might be suspect that greatly affected prize money (and to a casual glance could have seemed strange). I understand as well as anyone how a TD feels at the end of a Canadian open, but just dismissing him on the spot without so much as an explanation feels wrong to me.
So are you saying, David, that players in a tournament have standing in order to make complaints to the TD about what is taking place in other players' games?
So are you saying, David, that players in a tournament have standing in order to make complaints to the TD about what is taking place in other players' games?
Why not? Here are a few examples:
- You see an adult intimidating his junior opponent
- You hear 2 players agreeing to fix their game
- You see a player adjusting the clock while his opponent is away
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with going to the TD about a game other than your own. How you do it and the exact circumstances could alter my opinion though.
You're correct, Neil. Here is what the FIDE Laws of Chess say:
•Spectators and players in other games are not to speak about or otherwise interfere in a game. If necessary, the arbiter may expel offenders from the playing venue. If someone observes an irregularity, he may inform only the arbiter.
The last sentence would seem to apply. At that point the arbiter would decide what s/he should do with this information.
You're correct, Neil. Here is what the FIDE Laws of Chess say:
•Spectators and players in other games are not to speak about or otherwise interfere in a game. If necessary, the arbiter may expel offenders from the playing venue. If someone observes an irregularity, he may inform only the arbiter.
The last sentence would seem to apply. At that point the arbiter would decide what s/he should do with this information.
irregularity meaning an accusation of collusion or irregularity as in an illegal move? a player not following touch move? two light squared bishops for one player? a board set up wrong? big difference
let's make sure we understand the definitions in the laws of chess before we unpack what they mean as far as what a spectator can formally complain about
two players agreeing to a draw is not irregular under the laws of chess since it is permitted under the laws of chess - neither is a player resigning prematurely, a player blundering considered irregular under the laws of chess - I wish blunders were irregular and not allowed - I'd be a master by now :) :) :) even one player declaring checkmate and the other player accepting this may or may not be considered irregular that I know of - if a spectator or other player was to observe this I'm curious what the ruling by the arbiter would be - would he inform the players & make them play on or would he let the result stand?
one of the guiding principles I am guessing in a tournament I think is that an arbiter is limited in how much he can interfere in a game - with all sorts of games going on there is an inherent unfairness in some games being scrutinized closely while others are not observed at all - that's why its left up to the players to get the arbiter themselves if they see a problem - for example its up to the player to notice if a time has run out, not the arbiter or spectators or other players & if neither player notices & plays on its up to no one to interfere
for example Mr Zator apparently observed this game and has made an allegation of collusion, who observed Mr Zator's games to make certain there was no collusion in any of his games?
the only methods suggested to deal with 'grandmaster' draws by FIDE or organizers that I am aware of are changes in the number of points given for wins and draws
perhaps someone more knowledgeable can enlighten us, any new IA grads for example
I am not aware that FIDE has ever put something in place for other players to question 'grandmaster' draws or that they have ever been challenged at tournaments, the only ones who seem to be challenging them if you will are organizers that want fighting chess
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Friday, 23rd July, 2010, 10:20 AM.
The last sentence would seem to apply. At that point the arbiter would decide what s/he should do with this information.
However, Ed Zator wanted to treat his allegations as a real appeal.
"That is the issue, not so so much whether the final position was easily drawable - an appeals committee with some strong players would have to decide that. "
Good thing that K.M. has not blundered his queen :D
I have often "interfered" with games which are not my own - if I see an analog clock which appears not to be running on another board, I inform an arbiter, who takes appropriate action.
I have often "interfered" with games which are not my own - if I see an analog clock which appears not to be running on another board, I inform an arbiter, who takes appropriate action.
an analog clock not running would be irregular under the laws of chess, two players agreeing to a draw is allowed under the laws of chess
and what the arbiter does depends on what the irregularity is, if what you saw was a flag down on an analog clock I don't think the arbiter would go over and call the flag for the winning player who hadn't noticed
if you are wrong about the clock of course and the arbiter took action there is a possible interruption of someone's train of thought needlessly
it would be interesting to see if you did this in a time scramble situation with another game and if you happened to be wrong? what would happen, would the arbiter add time to one of the players clocks because of your error which had nothing to do with the other player or would the arbiter not interfere?
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Friday, 23rd July, 2010, 11:00 AM.
I'm not going to inform an arbiter unless I'm 100% sure that there is something wrong with the clock - analog or digital - e.g. if 2 hours have passed since the beginning of the round, and less than an hour has elapsed on the combined times on both clocks. I may even speak to one of the players (if I know them well, and they are walking around between moves). Usually - it's something like the increments haven't been turned on, and neither player has noticed.
You're correct, Neil. Here is what the FIDE Laws of Chess say:
•Spectators and players in other games are not to speak about or otherwise interfere in a game. If necessary, the arbiter may expel offenders from the playing venue. If someone observes an irregularity, he may inform only the arbiter.
The last sentence would seem to apply. At that point the arbiter would decide what s/he should do with this information.
I think that, in some cases, it's fine to mention what you saw to the arbiter; especially if he or she would need to act right away to correct a situation.
As far as the source of all this kerfuffle is concerned, I don't think simply making a remark is sufficient. If one really believes there has been wrongdoing, a written complaint is in order, even if it follows verbal notification.
In that case the arbiter would be obliged to look at it and the person who signed the complaint would need to put a little thought into what they alleged. Players have a right and obligation to speak up when they see things that would bring the game into disrepute, but they have an equal obligation to do so in a responsible fashion. I.E. Not here!
This situation was answered in Geurt Gijssen's column at ChessCafe this month. The answer was
"You mention that a player went to the arbiter about cheating in another game. A player who has finished his game is considered a spectator. The question is whether the arbiter must act on the protest of a spectator. My opinion is that he is not forced to do so, but it is advisable to investigate the matter."
Here's where we differ Neil.I did not see any place in the Laws of Chess where a non-player could bring forth a complaint.
The rules could be amended to say: "people other than players and closed relatives (of the arbiter) can talk to the arbiter, and not only about where to get chinese food after the round. The arbiter can then expel them from the room or investigate upon a worthy confidential observation.'
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