If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Policy / Politique
The fee for tournament organizers advertising on ChessTalk is $20/event or $100/yearly unlimited for the year.
Les frais d'inscription des organisateurs de tournoi sur ChessTalk sont de 20 $/événement ou de 100 $/année illimitée.
You can etransfer to Henry Lam at chesstalkforum at gmail dot com
Transfér à Henry Lam à chesstalkforum@gmail.com
Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
General Guidelines
---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
Some Basics
1. Under Board "Frequently Asked Questions" (FAQs) there are 3 sections dealing with General Forum Usage, User Profile Features, and Reading and Posting Messages. These deal with everything from Avatars to Your Notifications. Most general technical questions are covered there. Here is a link to the FAQs. https://forum.chesstalk.com/help
2. Consider using the SEARCH button if you are looking for information. You may find your question has already been answered in a previous thread.
3. If you've looked for an answer to a question, and not found one, then you should consider asking your question in a new thread. For example, there have already been questions and discussion regarding: how to do chess diagrams (FENs); crosstables that line up properly; and the numerous little “glitches” that every new site will have.
4. Read pinned or sticky threads, like this one, if they look important. This applies especially to newcomers.
5. Read the thread you're posting in before you post. There are a variety of ways to look at a thread. These are covered under “Display Modes”.
6. Thread titles: please provide some details in your thread title. This is useful for a number of reasons. It helps ChessTalk members to quickly skim the threads. It prevents duplication of threads. And so on.
7. Unnecessary thread proliferation (e.g., deliberately creating a new thread that duplicates existing discussion) is discouraged. Look to see if a thread on your topic may have already been started and, if so, consider adding your contribution to the pre-existing thread. However, starting new threads to explore side-issues that are not relevant to the original subject is strongly encouraged. A single thread on the Canadian Open, with hundreds of posts on multiple sub-topics, is no better than a dozen threads on the Open covering only a few topics. Use your good judgment when starting a new thread.
8. If and/or when sub-forums are created, please make sure to create threads in the proper place.
Debate
9. Give an opinion and back it up with a reason. Throwaway comments such as "Game X pwnz because my friend and I think so!" could be considered pointless at best, and inflammatory at worst.
10. Try to give your own opinions, not simply those copied and pasted from reviews or opinions of your friends.
Unacceptable behavior and warnings
11. In registering here at ChessTalk please note that the same or similar rules apply here as applied at the previous Boardhost message board. In particular, the following content is not permitted to appear in any messages:
* Racism
* Hatred
* Harassment
* Adult content
* Obscene material
* Nudity or pornography
* Material that infringes intellectual property or other proprietary rights of any party
* Material the posting of which is tortious or violates a contractual or fiduciary obligation you or we owe to another party
* Piracy, hacking, viruses, worms, or warez
* Spam
* Any illegal content
* unapproved Commercial banner advertisements or revenue-generating links
* Any link to or any images from a site containing any material outlined in these restrictions
* Any material deemed offensive or inappropriate by the Board staff
12. Users are welcome to challenge other points of view and opinions, but should do so respectfully. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Posts and threads with unacceptable content can be closed or deleted altogether. Furthermore, a range of sanctions are possible - from a simple warning to a temporary or even a permanent banning from ChessTalk.
Helping to Moderate
13. 'Report' links (an exclamation mark inside a triangle) can be found in many places throughout the board. These links allow users to alert the board staff to anything which is offensive, objectionable or illegal. Please consider using this feature if the need arises.
Advice for free
14. You should exercise the same caution with Private Messages as you would with any public posting.
While irrelevant, I'm sort of disturbed by all these references using tablebases to confirm how winnable a position is. We are humans, If someone can give the plan/idea to win such positions that would be more helpful and beneficial(and realistic). We never will have the skill of tablebases. For example, try putting a super GM game and compare it with a tablebase and you'll still see the super gm's making "mistakes" a lot.
I have the same opinion of using an engine to analyse as well. Seeing many players falling into the rybka/fritz trap and solely depending on them.
While irrelevant, I'm sort of disturbed by all these references using tablebases to confirm how winnable a position is. We are humans, If someone can give the plan/idea to win such positions that would be more helpful and beneficial(and realistic). We never will have the skill of tablebases. For example, try putting a super GM game and compare it with a tablebase and you'll still see the super gm's making "mistakes" a lot.
I have the same opinion of using an engine to analyse as well. Seeing many players falling into the rybka/fritz trap and solely depending on them.
The Tablebase(s) provide an absolute answer for certain endgame positions (provided they have a small enough number of total pieces). It is somewhat satisfying to know a certain position does in fact have a win - even after (say) 59 moves. That is not necessarily something easily shown without resorting to a tablebase lookup.
I agree with computer analysis in general though - if it coughs up a winning line that is fine, but if it does NOT, it might be because it just didn't look quite far enough - the user of the computer cannot know whether there was no win or one wasn't spotted.
A tablebase line is pre-calculated and presumes best play by both sides. For each move the computer simply looks up the current position and chooses the move that has the shortest path to a victory (or the longest path if it is on the short end of the stick). How "easy" or "obvious" the line is depends upon the position. A lot of chess engines won't find the line for K+Q vs. K through calculation although the technique is trivial for a human (the number of moves can take things outside of the computers "depth"). K+N+B vs. K is an example of something that many players find difficult and it's easy to go wrong. A computer using a tablebase won't.
I can't say in this case whether the exact line would be "easy" or "obvious"
for an expert or master to find. At my level (C-class) I'm not qualified to judge except to say that I wouldn't have found it, and I doubt very much EZ would have either. Obviously KM didn't find it but he tried to find it for 38 moves, and obviously his opponent had figured out the proper defensive technique: keep the pawn where it is and use it to support the rook, keeping the opponent's king away.
A tablebase line is pre-calculated and presumes best play by both sides. For each move the computer simply looks up the current position and chooses the move that has the shortest path to a victory (or the longest path if it is on the short end of the stick). How "easy" or "obvious" the line is depends upon the position. A lot of chess engines won't find the line for K+Q vs. K through calculation although the technique is trivial for a human (the number of moves can take things outside of the computers "depth"). K+N+B vs. K is an example of something that many players find difficult and it's easy to go wrong. A computer using a tablebase won't.
I can't say in this case whether the exact line would be "easy" or "obvious"
for an expert or master to find. At my level (C-class) I'm not qualified to judge except to say that I wouldn't have found it, and I doubt very much EZ would have either. Obviously KM didn't find it but he tried to find it for 38 moves, and obviously his opponent had figured out the proper defensive technique: keep the pawn where it is and use it to support the rook, keeping the opponent's king away.
Steve
Thnx.
I remember Karpov wrote they (with Kasparov) played blitz (3min) K+Q vs K+R with a chess program (probably including TBs). Not always they could win :D
It is up to the organizers if they are going to allow last rounds between different sections, to make sure that all the results are on the level, and
to investigate any suspicious ones.
They did not do that, and that spoiled it for me.
What rule did you cite as a reason to look at something suspicious in the game? What was the remedy you requested?
Often when a player is in a position where he can't find a way to make progress he offers a draw. That position in this thread would nicely fall into that category.
Thnx.
I remember Karpov wrote they (with Kasparov) played blitz (3min) K+Q vs K+R with a chess program (probably including TBs). Not always they could win :D
I seem to recall reading somewhere that when the first K+Q vs. K+R tablebase was calculated it was discovered that the longest forced line for the stronger side was much longer than previously thought. Best play for the weaker side eventually had the rook being moved far away from the king.
Several years ago my son did a science fair project for school dealing with the basics of how computers play chess. One of the experiments he had done was to set up a number of different endgame positions and have different chess engines analyze them, with and without tablebases. I showed him a couple of fortress positions that I figured would screw the computer up.
At the science fair where the parents came in to look at the student projects, one of the things he would do is offer to teach neophyte parents a basic technique of how to defend K+Q vs. K and then the parent could play it against Fritz or something else on the computer (tablebases disabled).
Defenceless? The original post was offensive and it turned out to be merit-less. At the very least, Ed Zator should apologize to Keith MacKinnon. A reader would have to be brainless to miss the implication made against KM. An apology would put EZ ahead of one of those bullies.
Offensive and meritless ? I suppose this would the first such post on ChessTalk. Just as failing to apologize when appropriate would be.
With all the evidence (repeated ad nauseum spiced with insults) and what has been said in this thread, I don't think that Keith McKinnon's reputation is in jeopardy in any way. It is simply a convenient excuse to bully. His name in this will very soon be forgotten. But at half dozen other people (not you Jonathan, of course you have been a gentleman throughout) should really worry now about their reputation if they had any to defend.
Thnx.
I remember Karpov wrote they (with Kasparov) played blitz (3min) K+Q vs K+R with a chess program (probably including TBs). Not always they could win :D
Six-time US Champ GM Walter Browne failed to win in 50 moves with Q vs R, and then just squeaked through the second time, both at tournament time controls versus a tablebase. It's very much an accomplishment to win with only 3 minutes. Truly great players can do many varied (chess) things well, and they continue to amaze us.
It's my fault that the tablebase stuff got introduced (even though I wasn't the first to do so), but I think it is very relevant. If the position is unwinnable, the complaint immediately fails. The complaint was difficult to understand, but seemed to contain the misapprehension that the further back the pawn is, the less likely that the defending side can draw. Not true. It's very complicated. That much at least, every master would remember from his study of endgames. That's why I introduced the drawn ECE position.
When we finally had a gamescore to work with, matters became absolutely clear, and the tablebases helped. Of course, they only help if one refrains from making unjustified conclusions, and that's what we did: no unjustified conclusions.
--
While Jean and I both dislike bullying, we'll have to remain in disagreement on the redemptive value of an apology.
Last edited by Jonathan Berry; Monday, 19th July, 2010, 11:30 AM.
Reason: non-political broadcast
If you think that this is being beaten up then you should watch what happens in downtown Windsor on a Saturday night on a fairly regular basis.
Don't play idiot with me, you are too good at this game for your own good.
When you see a bully in action what you do determine the kind of person you are.
1) You can do as if you have seen nothing and keep going. The victim may have done something to deserve it. Then you are a wimp;
2) You can jump in there and try to save the victim's life. This is risky but courageous; this is heroic but somehow foolish behaviour, especially if you have family and loved ones; :)
3) You can yell at the bully then run and call for help. Then you are a responsible citizen. Pretty good and probably well above average;
4) You can join in and go along with the bully. After all the victim is most probably a despicable individual who is getting what he deserves. Then you are a wimp and a sadist.
It is disappointing to find out that so many people on Chesstalk virtually belong to the 4th category. But it is in line with the success that the nazis had leading to WWII. It turns out that lots of ordinary looking people could easily turn into sadist butchers if given the opportunity.
Don't play idiot with me, you are too good at this game for your own good.
When you see a bully in action what you do determine the kind of person you are.
1) You can do as if you have seen nothing and keep going. The victim may have done something to deserve it. Then you are a wimp;
2) You can jump in there and try to save the victim's life. This is risky but courageous; this is heroic but somehow foolish behaviour, especially if you have family and loved ones; :)
3) You can yell at the bully then run and call for help. Then you are a responsible citizen. Pretty good and probably well above average;
4) You can join in and go along with the bully. After all the victim is most probably a despicable individual who is getting what he deserves. Then you are a wimp and a sadist.
It is disappointing to find out that so many people on Chesstalk virtually belong to the 4th category. But it is in line with the success that the nazis had leading to WWII. It turns out that lots of ordinary looking people could easily turn into sadist butchers if given the opportunity.
too good at the game for your own good? who else could that describe :):):)
the bully is the one who is attempting inappropriate financial gain, in this case Ed Zator wants more money that belongs to others, so he is attempting to bully and take money from those players by making libelous and slanderous accusations against them of game fixing, not to mention accusations against someone because of the country he comes from
the rest (who have nothing to gain monetarily) I think are following your point 3 above and letting Ed Zator know that he can't bully people to get their money by making unfounded accusations, they are yelling at the bully just as you suggest - if you get confused just follow the money - the one looking to take someone else's money is usually the bully in this case Ed Zator wants at least $100 according to his first post
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 19th July, 2010, 11:57 AM.
Jonathan: I have a hypothetical question regarding the value of tablebases in draw claims.
Let's say a master(player a) had the rook and pawn and a much lower rated(player b) had the queen and hardly any time on the clock and wanted to draw. I don't know much about claiming draws in the endgame, but lets say player b claimed a draw and went to the arbiter. And he had memorized tablebase evaluations beforehand and his position is "winnable" . So can he claim a draw to the arbiter based on his argument that it is dead winning for him according to tablebases? Would the arbiter go check tablebases or how would he proceed?
While Jean and I both dislike bullying, we'll have to remain in disagreement on the redemptive value of an apology.
I don't think that I have ever belittle the redemptive value of a sincere apology. Personally I love to apologize when I do make a mistake but for obvious reasons I very rarely get the chance to practice. :)
too good at the game for your own good? who else could that describe :):):)
the bully is the one who is attempting inappropriate financial gain, in this case Ed Zator wants more money that belongs to others, so he is attempting to bully and take money from those players by making libelous and slanderous accusations against them of game fixing, not to mention accusations against someone because of the country he comes from
the rest (who have nothing to gain monetarily) I think are following your point 3 above and letting Ed Zator know that he can't bully people to get their money by making unfounded accusations, they are yelling at the bully just as you suggest - if you get confused just follow the money - the one looking to take someone else's money is usually the bully in this case Ed Zator wants at least $100 according to his first post
I can see that you are not playing idiot... Start using a dictionary. At least you may learn the meaning of a few words.
I can see that you are not playing idiot... Start using a dictionary. At least you may learn the meaning of a few words.
again with the English, you really have nothing to say if you can only criticize my use of the English language
I hope you at least know what slander and libel are and what aiding and abetting someone in these efforts means
oh and please do tell me the same thing happened in Toronto 25 years ago
where is your sense of humor??????
here since you like quotes
“Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.”
William James quotes
it takes a real idiot not to recognize when someone is trying to bully his way into more money and to defend his doing so
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 19th July, 2010, 12:07 PM.
I don't think that I have ever belittle the redemptive value of a sincere apology. Personally I love to apologize when I do make a mistake but for obvious reasons I very rarely get the chance to practice. :)
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better loking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
I used to have a girlfriend
but she just couldn't compete
with all of these love starved women
who keep clamoring at my feet.
Well I prob'ly could find me another
but I guess they're all in awe of me.
Who cares, I never get lonesome
cause I treasure my own company.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
I guess you could say I'm a loner,
a cowboy outlaw tough and proud.
I could have lots of friends if I want to
but then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd.
Some folks say that I'm egotistical.
Hell, I don't even know what that means.
I guess it has something to do with the way that I
fill out my skin tight blue jeans.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
Tweet
Comment