Why I Am Supporting Richmond Hill Team For CYCC Hosts

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  • #16
    Re: Why I Am Supporting Richmond Hill Team For CYCC Hosts

    Hi Micihael:

    The Gillanders' post of Nov. 11 I am referring to was on the confidential CFC Governors' Discussion Board, which started the govenors' debate on the 2 bids. So you do not have access to that post I am referring to.

    Bob

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    • #17
      Re: Why I Am Supporting Richmond Hill Team For CYCC Hosts

      Hi Bob,

      I will trust you on that. When deciding whether to accept CIC's "late" revised bid, CFC may want to take the following into consideration:

      1) It was a bit confused in different messages posted whether the deadline is before Nov. 19 or before the end of Nov. 19th.

      2) CIC is taking CFC & the public forum's suggestions seriously and is willing to put in the effort to revise their bid.

      3) David Cohen has notified CFC that they were working on and will submit a revised bid.

      If CFC's decision is to accept CIC's revised bid, to be fair to the other bidder, may I suggest to allow the other bidder to submit a revised bid, say, within 3 days time.

      Just my 2 cents.

      Comment


      • #18
        The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

        For kids and non-Governors (who can't access the CFC's Governors Discussion Board):

        Toronto's revised CYCC bid is for a 4 day CYCC at the Westin Harbour Castle, Mon.-Th. before the Canadian Open.

        Regards,

        David

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: " Late " Revision of Toronto Bid

          Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
          Hi Michael:

          In the original post by President Bob Gillanders on Nov. 11, he said:

          " We will be calling for a vote on Nov 19th. "

          I interpret that to mean 12:00 AM Friday, Nov. 19. So as I interpret it, the voting period has already started, and the Toronto Bid is trying to submit a " revised " bid DURING the voting period - this would be very unusual to accept I would think. Votes have already been cast perhaps on the bids as originally submitted, and were what was to be voted on as of 12:00 AM Today.

          I do not know if the " revised " bid has even yet been filed with the Chairperson/President.

          And is there any issue of " fairness " here to the Richmond Hill bid??

          But we will need to await a formal ruling on this issue of " late " revision, from the Chair of the Governors' Meeting, President Bob Gillanders.

          Bob
          It's always been my position that the bidders could modify their bids as late as today.

          It was perhaps unfortunate that the vote is also starting today. I have advised Governors they might want to wait until the end of the day before voting.

          In any event the amendment to the Toronto bid is what is being voted on
          (dates and format change).

          Comment


          • #20
            Re : The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

            Originally posted by David Cohen View Post
            For kids and non-Governors (who can't access the CFC's Governors Discussion Board):

            Toronto's revised CYCC bid is for a 4 day CYCC at the Westin Harbour Castle, Mon.-Th. before the Canadian Open.
            This of course changes everything. But completely changing bids (we are not talking details here) this late corrupts the whole process which may make potential future bidders on such events stay away. If the Richmond Hill people had known beforehand that the Toronto bid would revert at the last minute to a four-day CYCC before the CO, would they have spent time and energy putting together their bid ? It is like bidding on E-Bay knowing that at any time the competition can always outbid you by one cent...
            On that front too the CFC needs to straighten up its act in order to provide fair conditions for bidding.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

              Originally posted by David Cohen View Post
              For kids and non-Governors (who can't access the CFC's Governors Discussion Board):

              Toronto's revised CYCC bid is for a 4 day CYCC at the Westin Harbour Castle, Mon.-Th. before the Canadian Open.

              Regards,

              David
              For kids and non-Governors (who can't access the CFC's Governors Discussion Board):

              World Open (Philadelphia): June 30 - July 4 (Mon)

              Toronto (Changed bid): July 4 (Mon) - July 7 (Thu)


              Many young Canadian players traditionally participate in World Open.

              Last year some of the top players (including James Fu) had skiped CYCC in Windsor in favour of World Open.

              New dates proposed by Toronto team in their revised bid are in conflict with World Open dates.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Re : The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

                Originally posted by Jean Hébert View Post
                This of course changes everything. But completely changing bids (we are not talking details here) this late corrupts the whole process which may make potential future bidders on such events stay away. If the Richmond Hill people had known beforehand that the Toronto bid would revert at the last minute to a four-day CYCC before the CO, would they have spent time and energy putting together their bid ? It is like bidding on E-Bay knowing that at any time the competition can always outbid you by one cent...
                On that front too the CFC needs to straighten up its act in order to provide fair conditions for bidding.
                I think the issue here is that in general a CYCC bid alone will lose out to a CYCC/CO joint bid. In this particular case the joint bid had to remove their "innovative" format within the timeframe allowed or risk certain defeat.

                We are just learning how to do things in the more transparent world where everybody wants to know the details of everything, ASAP. There will be hiccups along the way. Perhaps this was one of them. Some people like the full disclosure up front, allowing for "negotiations between the bidders and the voters" while others prefer keeping things totally quiet and no negotiations.

                Certainly, Richmond Hill team must have realized that Toronto could change their bid, just as they could have changed their own bid up until the final day. They were advised this every day by the President.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Re : The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

                  Originally posted by Jean Hébert View Post
                  This of course changes everything. But completely changing bids (we are not talking details here) this late corrupts the whole process which may make potential future bidders on such events stay away. If the Richmond Hill people had known beforehand that the Toronto bid would revert at the last minute to a four-day CYCC before the CO, would they have spent time and energy putting together their bid ? It is like bidding on E-Bay knowing that at any time the competition can always outbid you by one cent...
                  On that front too the CFC needs to straighten up its act in order to provide fair conditions for bidding.
                  I'll tell you straight, Jean, if it were me I'd pull the bid to hold the CO and CYCC.

                  I have little patience for this nonsense. This thread is a blueprint for failure of the event. Also, chess isn't a democracy.

                  Another small point, and you can check on Jonathan Berry's site which lists Canadian Opens and the number of players. When the events were held in the same area two years in a row the participation was less the second year.

                  That would be Kapaskasing two years in a row and Toronto one year and Scarborough the next year (or maybe it was Scarorough and then Toronto). This is an indication the attendance will be lower this time and last time was no great turnout for Toronto.
                  Gary Ruben
                  CC - IA and SIM

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    About the late changes

                    Jean,

                    You're right, but the bid from Richmond Hill and the subsequent discussions were valuable. If the result is a better bid from Toronto, then I think everyone, including Richmond Hill organizers, should be happy.

                    Viktor,

                    Hotel dates are still flexible. If it's really an issue, the CYCC can still be changed to Tues-Fri.

                    Regards,


                    David

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: About the late changes

                      Originally posted by David Cohen View Post
                      Jean,

                      Viktor,

                      Hotel dates are still flexible. If it's really an issue, the CYCC can still be changed to Tues-Fri.

                      Regards,

                      David
                      Everything is possible to change.

                      It's easy to fix the problem after the voting process is over.

                      But it is more professional if the problem was thought-out and solved in advance.

                      Here are CYCC dates from Richmond Hill bid:

                      July 6 (Wed) - July 9 (Sat)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Re : The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

                        Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
                        Another small point, and you can check on Jonathan Berry's site which lists Canadian Opens and the number of players. When the events were held in the same area two years in a row the participation was less the second year.

                        That would be Kapaskasing two years in a row and Toronto one year and Scarborough the next year (or maybe it was Scarorough and then Toronto). This is an indication the attendance will be lower this time and last time was no great turnout for Toronto.
                        I checked Jonathon's website, below is listed the location and attendance for the last 20 years. If my geography is correct, the only times the CO has been held in the same area twice in a row is Kapuskasing in 2003 and 2004.

                        1990 Edmundston 59
                        1991 Windsor 120
                        1992 Scarborough 254
                        1993 London 128
                        1994 Winnipeg 187
                        1995 Toronto 303
                        1996 Calgary 147
                        1997 Winnipeg 188
                        1998 Ottawa 223
                        1999 Vancouver 204
                        2000 Edmonton 193
                        2001 Sackville 169
                        2002 Montreal 326
                        2003 Kapuskasing 141
                        2004 Kapuskasing 125
                        2005 Edmonton 222
                        2006 Kitchener 198
                        2007 Ottawa 280
                        2008 Montreal 325
                        2009 Edmonton 202
                        2010 Toronto 265

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re : About the late changes

                          Originally posted by David Cohen View Post
                          You're right, but the bid from Richmond Hill and the subsequent discussions were valuable. If the result is a better bid from Toronto, then I think everyone, including Richmond Hill organizers, should be happy.
                          In chess a bad move may win a game or two but down the line if repeated it is certain to bring disaster. The end does not justify the means.
                          This time the procedure may produce decent CYCC and CO but it should be much improved in the future, otherwise people might become even more reluctant to bid on CFC events. As I have said many times before the CFC has to set up proper rules on the national championships, including minimal standards, to avoid repetition of this kind of circus where bidders feel (justifiably because of lack of guidelines) that they can propose anything at first, and then change it according to circumstances. This is unsettling for everyone (mostly for kids and their parents who dont know what to expect), time consuming and discouraging for bidders.
                          Having clear rules and guidelines does not make it harder on organizers, quite the opposite. Knowing precisely what you have to do makes things much easier.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Re : The revised CYCC bid from Toronto

                            Originally posted by John Coleman View Post
                            I checked Jonathon's website, below is listed the location and attendance for the last 20 years. If my geography is correct, the only times the CO has been held in the same area twice in a row is Kapuskasing in 2003 and 2004.

                            2003 Kapuskasing 141
                            2004 Kapuskasing 125
                            Jonathan's chess site goes back more than 20 years. It starts in 1956 and I'm not sure why you used 1990 as a cutoff date.

                            1987 Toronto 208
                            1988 Scarborough 201

                            Scarborough is now part of Toronto rather than being a suburb. The Scarborough location was easy to get to and had free parking, as I recall.

                            In any case, it shows a tendency for the second year to have a smaller entry that the first year. The Canadian Open held in Toronto in 1983 had 330 entrants.

                            While you might think Scarborough was a problem, the Canadian Open held there in 1992 had an entry of 254.

                            In any case, history tends to indicate to me if the CO is held in Toronto in 2011 the entry will be lower than it was in 2010. I'd like to see the trend reversed but wouldn't bet on it.
                            Gary Ruben
                            CC - IA and SIM

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Why I Am Supporting Richmond Hill Team For CYCC Hosts

                              I agree with Victor that the Toronto Bid can cause some problems as I am planning to go to the World Open this year. The Richmond Hill Bid seems much more suitable.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Why I Am Supporting Richmond Hill Team For CYCC Hosts

                                Would it be fair to say that the CFC might have wanted to put some special conditions on the successful bid of hosting the tourney, like it has to be a four day event instead of seven, and it can not be within some time (like two weeks) within another major tourney? I have to agree with the idea that if one guys knows what the other is bidding then that is not a good thing. The concept of deadline could have been a little tighter perhaps. I know that everyone can see this for themselves. Just a thought, not looking to point fingers but hoping to avoid this from happening again. We are all learning here and I appreciate reading the views of all who care to share their views. This is how we grow. This is as the English say, 'a sticky wicket.' (i.e. an awkward situation);)

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