Welcome To The Depression...

[Garland Best]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

If they don't fit the bill for you do what I do. Don't vote. Quite simple. Their funding comes from your vote. If you don't vote some party loses funding.

Here is one recommended reform to the elections act that I support

1.2.2 Option to Decline Ballot
There is a growing perception among some of Canada’s electorate that there should be a way in which an elector can register his or her dissatisfaction with the political process by declining his or her ballot. The Canada Elections Act currently does not provide any authority for that to be done.

In order to remain vital and meaningful, the vote must remain responsive to the needs of all Canadians. The time may have come to allow an elector a formal means of expressing dissatisfaction with the political system in a manner that is not only peaceful, but is meaningful as well. Such a change at the federal level would mirror similar innovations that have taken place in a number of provinces: Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and the Yukon – all of which have provisions in their electoral statutes for ballots to be declined and of which Manitoba’s may serve as a model.

Recommendation: The Canada Elections Act should be amended to provide for the means for a ballot to be declined, recorded and reported as such in the official ballot results and which respects the principle of the secrecy of the vote.

My mother-in-law is a red Tory. She worked in Barbara McDougal's office in the eighties. Voted Conservative her entire life. When Mike Harris led the Conservatives to power in Ontario, she voted for him. Within a year she despised what he did to the health system and to seniors.

Come re-election, she could not bring herself to vote anything other than Conservative, but at the same time could not vote for "that MAN!". So, she exercised her only other option. She formally declined her vote.

I respect that choice. It meant that her opinion was recorded, and not just lost amongst the people who couldn't be bothered to vote. We need this option on all levels.

[Lawrence Day]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Jason, you wrote: "...I don't believe he is making other people pay..."

This chessplayer's tax money is going to support other people's kids buy skates and skis. Through the COC funding my tax money supports equestrian, shooting, and sports I don't even like, but not chess.

I don't understand why people trust Steven Harper. He reversed his last platform's stance on income trusts and violated his own fixed election dates law. This suggests indecision or lack of confidence in his own positions.

Neither party is responsible for going to Afghanistan. Canada had NATO treaties so if one country was attacked we would all fight back. The U.S. then fooled us into thinking Afghanistan-dwellers were somehow responsible for 9/11. Bluntly, we were tricked.

I see the green shift as a forced variation. Professor Dion will do it carefully and logically while Mr. Harper will wait for manifest disasters for him to react to. This is normal for neoconservatism. Bewailing the nanny state while cutting government regulations and inspectors eventually leads to Walkerton water or listeria-infected meat ~ direct consequences of weakening "nanny's" safety net.

The worst thing about our system is mathematical: 40% "majorities". These lead to the absolute popular rejections of Mulroney or Harris regimes. 60% already didn't like these guys when they were elected and as they governed the other 40% learned why.

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Jason, you wrote: "...I don't believe he is making other people pay..."

This chessplayer's tax money is going to support other people's kids buy skates and skis. Through the COC funding my tax money supports equestrian, shooting, and sports I don't even like, but not chess.

I don't understand why people trust Steven Harper. He reversed his last platform's stance on income trusts and violated his own fixed election dates law. This suggests indecision or lack of confidence in his own positions.


I see the green shift as a forced variation. Professor Dion will do it carefully and logically while Mr. Harper will wait for manifest disasters for him to react to. This is normal for neoconservatism. Bewailing the nanny state while cutting government regulations and inspectors eventually leads to Walkerton water or listeria-infected meat ~ direct consequences of weakening "nanny's" safety net.

I don't trust Steven Harper.
#1. His 'copyright' bill C-61 will kill the hi-tech industry... just panders to the US lobby. Any bill that gives such idiotic fines for 'reverse engineering' is beyond stupid. But then again it was the Liberal party that first introduced this bill and signed a treaty with the US to do something about our current copyright laws.

#2 The income trust LIE was a disaster. He didn't just 'flip flop' he down right lied as soon as he got into office. My parents had about $40,000 in income trusts which practically disappeared in value when he screwed with them. Then again what he did was no different than every other party was going to do.

The 'green shift' is just another tax grab as far as I can see. We do need solutions to environmental problems, but more taxes seems to be the only solution offered. The Carbon tax was first introduced here in BC. Last poll numbers Ive seen is that the liberal party is at an all time low because of this new tax. People are just fed up with new taxes.

As for the reduction in regulations. I am all for safety regulations, what I am against is stupid regulations such as forced Canadian content on the radio etc... I don't need to hear Celine Dion again and again to get my stomach full of 'Canadian content'. I don't need a multi billion dollar Gun Registry that replaced a perfectly good registry of gun owners. I don't need a HUGE government bureaucracy of Indian affairs that wont be financially accountable by law. I don't need the CBC. Period. I don't need money for non educational grants whether that is for the 'arts', sports, or corporate welfare (or chess!). I want government services to have competition to keep them lean. I am just plain sick of my money being thrown away. I just want the Canadian government to stick to the basics... Education, Health care, Defense, roads, safety. The rest can be damned and axe the lot of the programs.

From what I can see NONE of the current parties are any good but the conservatives seem to be the 'lesser of evils'. Once again as Ben said 'they don't eff with our money that much'

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Here is one recommended reform to the elections act that I support

I've thought of declining my ballot but decided against it. Voting only encourages them.

Jason is trying to rationalize that giving people tax money to help buy a house is not a tax. They are only getting their money back, he says. As long as Harper won't give me the same amount of money then I am subsidizing the give back and it is a tax against me. Harper is giving them their money and also my money. I also feel when Harper busted the income trusts he broke his trust with the voters in view of what had been promised.

I can't support Dion's carbon tax. I worked in oil and gas and won't vote for a tax which would penalize my long time employer. The nation depends on the health of the oil and gas industry as much as they did our industry. It would also be bad for company revenues and the market value of shares which would erode the net worth of shareholders.

The last time I voted NDP as a protest they won. Won't do that again.

The Green party fails to realize much of the remaining industry will head for another country to escape their proposed green taxes.

If I were working I'd vote for whoever I thought would be best to ensure my job and the economy. Not an easy choice these days. I wonder how long before Canada has to start bailing out institutions by nationalizing or propping them up.

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Here is one recommended reform to the elections act that I support

[I]1.2.2 Option to Decline Ballot
There is a growing perception among some of Canada’s electorate that there should be a way in which an elector can register his or her dissatisfaction with the political process by declining his or her ballot. The Canada Elections Act currently does not provide any authority for that to be done.

Australia has this option. By law you have to vote in Australia, but they have a 'none of the above' option. I believe that if the 'none of the above' option wins, they have a reelection in that area with new candidates. I could be wrong on this last part, but I do know that there is a none of the above option :)

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Jason:

Your posts read like Libertarianism:

http://www.libertarian.ca/

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

I don't trust Steven Harper.

#2 The income trust LIE was a disaster. He didn't just 'flip flop' he down right lied as soon as he got into office. My parents had about $40,000 in income trusts which practically disappeared in value when he screwed with them. Then again what he did was no different than every other party was going to do.

That could have been handled differently. The existing trusts could have been grandfathered. It would have at least been an attempt to keep a promise. Maybe when you get tired of being lied to by politicians you will also refuse to vote for them.

As I recall it, the income trust change was made after BCE wanted to change over. So what happened as a result is the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan (or whatever the official name) decided to buy them. They will put it in the pension plan and the earnings will still be sheltered from tax.

The major problem is people took the promise into consideration before they made an investment decision and then the Conservatives broke the promise. You have 2 choices. You can reward them for this by voting for them again OR you can withhold your vote from them either by voting for whoever has the best chance of defeating their candidate in your riding or by not voting at all.

You see, continuing to vote for them only encourages them to continue to break promises.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

I've thought of declining my ballot but decided against it. Voting only encourages them.

...The last time I voted NDP as a protest they won. Won't do that again.

The Green party fails to realize much of the remaining industry will head for another country to escape their proposed green taxes.

If I were working I'd vote for whoever I thought would be best to ensure my job and the economy. Not an easy choice these days. I wonder how long before Canada has to start bailing out institutions by nationalizing or propping them up.

Hi Gary

Neglecting to vote is a tad negative in my opinion. Also goes against the notion/myth that people fought and died to keep our right to vote.

Staying home is a bit as if you played the variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Nh4 Bc8 as Black against the current government in power. What if the government just repeats the position with 7.Nf3 ? :)

I'm roughly in your predicament. No serious party currently attractive to vote for. I'd decline my vote but because I can't do so secretly, I won't. Don't want to be a spectacle to my neighbours by saying it out loud to an official.

Voting for a fringe party is my preferred choice (but not the Green Party). Even though their member probably won't get in, the politicians can still see my protest vote. If I stay at home, it suits many of them, rather than discourages them.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Hi Gary

Neglecting to vote is a tad negative in my opinion. Also goes against the notion/myth that people fought and died to keep our right to vote.

Hi Kevin,

I suppose they also fought for my right not to vote. The idea isn't to die for your country. It's to make the other guy die for his.

I had an uncle who signed up for the war when he was 17. Air Force. Flew on the bombers during WWII. He ran for the PC's a couple of times, I think it was. Mailed me his election literature and button one time. He was in another province. He ran in an NDP riding so never won. He used to use a photo of himself in his military uniform. Not exactly a plus in that riding but he didn't care.

I also wouldn't want to loudly decline my ballot. My neighbours are usually there and at least one probably still works at the poll so I wouldn't want to make a scene. Some of the seniors put a lot of time into elections. They have a lot of lobbying power. The politicians visit the seniors club at election time then you don't see them till the next election. Funny how that works. :)

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Jason:

Your posts read like Libertarianism:

http://www.libertarian.ca/

Thanks for the URL, I checked it out and yes it probably is far closer to my political views. I tend to get my views from older renaissance / enlightenment books. Adam Smith's 'the wealth of nations', Benjamin Franklins autobiography, Thoreau 'On the duty of civil disobedience' etc...

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

This chessplayer's tax money is going to support other people's kids buy skates and skis. Through the COC funding my tax money supports equestrian, shooting, and sports I don't even like, but not chess.

A question, Lawrence: if some fat pig eats at McDonald's thrice daily and never exercises, should taxpayer's pay for his inevitable medical treatment?

[Lawrence Day]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

A question, Lawrence: if some fat pig eats at McDonald's thrice daily and never exercises, should taxpayer's pay for his inevitable medical treatment?

(This wouldn't be as much of a problem if nutrition were learned in schools instead of from tv commercials;)

The flat 1% GST reduction decreased that fellow's bill same as if he'd been buying real food. If he bought real food he'd live much longer and collect way more old age pension. Maybe eventually it evens out.

But yes, taxpayers should pool their health insurance universally
for economic reasons, let alone compassionate ones.
Pooled they get bulk discounts from the drug dealers.
Sensible countries always socialize medicine.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Ben, that is a critical point.

It seems to me that a society where everyone did what they wanted (to themselves) but there would be no social safety net is viable; same with a society where there would be a social safety net but the government could mandate how much and what you eat (e.g. your veggies!), how much you should exercise, how much beer you can have, and outlaw places like McDonald's.

It seems to me that what people want a society where they have freedom to abuse themselves and have the taxpayer pick up the tab. Such a society is obviously not sustainable.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

(This wouldn't be as much of a problem if nutrition were learned in schools instead of from tv commercials;)

Lawrence, are you telling me that you think the average person is too stupid to know the difference between nutritional information and advertising? That they don't know that smoking is bad for them? That they don't know that not exercising shortens their lives?

This reminds me of the (NDP?) commercial about how Harper's government sees one in eight child living in poverty. Sure the government has some responsibility to its citizens, especially children, but what about the responsibility of the parents? Canada is becoming a nation of people who flat out refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!

[Jason Lohner]

Re: Welcome To The Depression...

Lawrence, are you telling me that you think the average person is too stupid to know the difference between nutritional information and advertising? That they don't know that smoking is bad for them? That they don't know that not exercising shortens their lives?

This reminds me of the (NDP?) commercial about how Harper's government sees one in eight child living in poverty. Sure the government has some responsibility to its citizens, especially children, but what about the responsibility of the parents? Canada is becoming a nation of people who flat out refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!

Ahh but that is the core of socialism, people don't have to take responsibility for their own actions. Why bother when the collective 'we' will pay?

As for poverty, There really isn't any poverty in Canada. I challenge anyone here to visit a truely POOR country and see what real poverty is. I doubt that 1-10000 in Canada is actually poor. Sorry, unless you've seen first hand how people live in a poor country, you have NO idea. After doing some charity work in a poor country, I came back with the view that there is NO excuse for 99.999% of the people in Canada not to better themselves. The so called 'poor' in Canada are just plain Lazy and our socialist system just encourages their laziness.