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No. A judge will decide. If the company doesn't like the decision I think an appeal is possible. This could drag on for years. I seem to recall a railway won a similar appeal some years ago.
Seems rather unfair to me. If a normal citizen doesn't pay the taxes assessed to him he is normally not in a position to take anything to the supreme court. Once he's exhausted local appeal processes and still can't pay, tough luck.
Personally, I like Catalyst's chances in court. If I didn't I'd sell my shares and take my profits.
You are quite likely right. That doesn't make it fair.
Do you live in one of the 4 towns in which they have a mill?
I live in Victoria, where all the mills closed decades ago.
Amusingly enough, they were talking about the Catalyst situation on local radio as I was typing the above.
One of the speakers pointed out that the main reason for the increase in Municipal taxes in B.C. was the downloading of Provincial responsibilities to the municipalities without also transferring any revenues or any way other than property tax of getting the necessary revenue for providing the services they are required by law to provide.
The large corporations were, by and large, completely behind this downloading. Strangely, Provincial taxes have not declined very much (except to those corporations) and consequently the Province had, until recently, surplusses of revenue over expenses.
Of course the Federal government did much the same things to the provinces first.
Seems rather unfair to me. If a normal citizen doesn't pay the taxes assessed to him he is normally not in a position to take anything to the supreme court. Once he's exhausted local appeal processes and still can't pay, tough luck.
I don't think the issue is taxation. It's fair taxation. I think in Alberta the maximum a company can be taxed is 4 times the residential rate. One of those 4 towns in BC is charging in excess of 20 times the residential rate. The reason to allow court challenges is to give a company some way to challenge unreasonable taxation. Otherwise you could get situations where, for whatever reason, a town decided to charge 100 times the residential rate just to force a default and sieze valuable property. Companies don't get to vote.
I don't know if any of the people on the radio show you were listening to are sympathetic to Catalysts situation. Possibly not, considering most people want business to pay more and themselves to pay less.
Each year the listed companies send around a disclosure that tells, amongst other things, how many shares the officers and directors hold. I hold more shares than some of the directors, but likely got them at a much lower price.
All I'm really interested in is that the entire matter get settled and everyone gets back to work and makes paper. Wars of attrition are not in anyone best interest.
This is a hard environment. Newspapers are having a hard go of it and some are starting to publish less days a week. It's probably mainly older people, like myself, who still have a newspaper delivered 7 days a week. I can't remember the last time I looked up a number in a telephone book. Another larger user of newsprint. I use the internet.
yes the BC government has downloaded a lot of services on the municipalities without giving them a way to pay other than property taxes... This started in the 90's under the NDP (as a reaction to the Federal liberals Downloading on to the Provinces) with the 'Translink' fiasco. The current government is just as bad. Its called 'pass the buck'... look everyone we have a balanced budget! Let the people under us pay (and pay and pay).
I was reading 'Civil disobedience and other essays' by Henry Thoreau this morning and his statement
- "The fact which the politician faces is merely, that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves."
All I'm really interested in is that the entire matter get settled and everyone gets back to work and makes paper. Wars of attrition are not in anyone best interest.
This has little to do with the municipal tax situation and much to do with lack of markets. I venture to guess that the upper management of the company are still drawing their salaries, whereas those who actually made the paper are on UIC or welfare if that's run out.
We bet a good big piece of our economy on selling resources to others. We do not even feed ourselves any more. So why are we surprised that when other nations get in a bad way they stop buying from us? And then further surprised when our own economy goes into the hole?
yes the BC government has downloaded a lot of services on the municipalities without giving them a way to pay other than property taxes... This started in the 90's under the NDP (as a reaction to the Federal liberals Downloading on to the Provinces) with the 'Translink' fiasco. The current government is just as bad. Its called 'pass the buck'... look everyone we have a balanced budget! Let the people under us pay (and pay and pay).
They have downloaded in Ontario as well. The provincial government socked it to us. The extra is passed on to residential taxpayers and fees for services. I'm not aware a disproportionate amount is passed onto major industry in disproportionate amounts.
This has little to do with the municipal tax situation and much to do with lack of markets. I venture to guess that the upper management of the company are still drawing their salaries, whereas those who actually made the paper are on UIC or welfare if that's run out.
I doubt such an argument about salaries would even be entertained by the courts. How would that impact on an argument involving how reasonable the major industrial tax rate is in relation to the residential tax rate, small business tax and the services consumed? I do hope your politicians have a better argument that you are suggesting.
This is a nice high stakes game. I'd be surprised if some deal isn't cut.
I read Timberwest has also challenged the tax rate in the BC supreme court.
If Catalyst wins there will be a flood of challenges. If they lose, good luck in attracting and keeping major industrial. This is an international story now.
Corporations don't like to relocate to jurisdictions which fleece them on taxation.
In any case, the following link is the reason I think Catalyst has a reasonable legal argument. Note the taxation they pay in Arizona.
I don't much care about what their legal case is. They bought the mill knowing what the tax rate was. Now they want to reneg. Whether that is legal or illegal, it's despicable in my opinion. The towns whole tax base has been devastated by their layoffs and now they want to deal the final blow.
Just my opinion, which I'll admit won't mean much in court.
They have downloaded in Ontario as well. The provincial government socked it to us. The extra is passed on to residential taxpayers and fees for services. I'm not aware a disproportionate amount is passed onto major industry in disproportionate amounts.
The Feds pass it to the provinces, The province passes it down to the municipalities which is then added to property taxes. What not one of these levels of governments seem to acknowledge is that there is only one tax payer!
Major industry does have one option that your average person does not... they can leave for lower tax jurisdictions. If I was the owner of that mill I would have moved to an outlying area just out of the jurisdiction of the town. Might be expensive initially, but it the long run it would pay dividends!
If I was the owner of that mill I would have moved to an outlying area just out of the jurisdiction of the town. Might be expensive initially, but it the long run it would pay dividends!
Well the current owners didn't build the mail, they bought it in it's current location. They knew going in what the taxes would be and what the rules were. They made quite a lot of money at the old rates, too.
They knew the rules going in. When times got hard they tried to change the rules. It's a good scam if you can get away with it. Since you seem to approve of this I assume that time I am doing worse in a chess game with you, you will be happy to allow me start moving my bishops as if they were also rooks, without demanding any such concession for your self!
When times got hard they tried to change the rules. It's a good scam if you can get away with it.
Let's have a look at the scam.
Here are the 2008 and 2009 tax rates for Campbell River. Particularly take note of the Managed Forest rate to see how they are trying to fleece one of the companies. They raised the tax rate for Managed Forest Land from $10.63 per $1,000. assessed to a mind boggling $146.23 per $1,000. assessed in only one year. There's a company taking thiis to the B.C. Supreme Court. Here are the two schedules.
It's easy to see why these matters have to be settled in court. I think many don't want to see this end up in court because they are afraid they will no longer be able to fleece the companies involved.
I guess it's time to put the Catalyst discussion to bed. Suffice to say I discussed it with my financial advisor. After laughing, my wife told me to lose it like a bad habit. Get rid of it like bad breath.
Anyhow, I figured out a way to fight the high gasoline prices. It doesn't completely eliminate the cost of gasoline and it carries market risk, but I want to see how it will work out.
What I did was buy shares in an income trust which owns an oil refinery. I was reading they sell the majority of the gasoline they refine into the U.S. Well, they pay a monthly distribution. So I hold the units, which are around what I consider the low end of their trading range, for capital gains and I will put the money from the monthly distributions into my gas tank. A good part of my gasoline will be getting paid for and the Americans (where the refinery sells most of the gasoline they refine) will be paying for it.
Anyhow, that's the theory. :) It kind of tickles my funny bone.
I notice GM is about to come out of bankrupcy protection. I guess we'll be putting a ton of money into the company. I can't see how it solves what appears to me to be the problem. The supply of vehicles exceeds the demand. With trade-in values so low a person might as well drive their vehicle into the ground. Some families are going from 2 car families to 1 car families to cut down on expenses.
DISCLAIMER: None of what I write should be used for investment decisions. I write this stuff for entertainment. Consult a financial advisor.
They knew the rules going in. When times got hard they tried to change the rules. It's a good scam if you can get away with it. Since you seem to approve of this I assume that time I am doing worse in a chess game with you, you will be happy to allow me start moving my bishops as if they were also rooks, without demanding any such concession for your self!
The analogy isn't exactly accurate... how many jobs will be lost if the mill closes down? What will this do to the tax base of these towns? These towns will be decimated if they don't do something... not fair? hmmm this would be like the opponent resigning and you not being able to play anymore. Also governments have to stop considering these businesses as the opponents to defeat. The town and the business have to have the same objectives, to keep the tax revenue flowing the townships must realize the economic realities... if they don't they will lose all revenue from this company.
This reminds me of a story that I read in the paper a few years ago...
" Every week a 100 people would meet for lunch at a local restaurant from all across the economic spectrum... poor people .. middle class and there was one very rich man. When they got together they all voted that the people should pay on a graduated scale with the poorest paying nothing. When it came to paying the bill the one rich man payed 50% of the bill. Every week the people would gripe and moan that the rich man wasn't paying 'his fair share' of the bill and would constantly complain. Often the people would vote and make this man pay more and more. One week at lunch the rich man didn't show up and yet the people ordered their meals and the bill came and they suddenly realized that they had to pay..."
I notice GM is about to come out of bankrupcy protection. I guess we'll be putting a ton of money into the company. I can't see how it solves what appears to me to be the problem. The supply of vehicles exceeds the demand. With trade-in values so low a person might as well drive their vehicle into the ground. Some families are going from 2 car families to 1 car families to cut down on expenses.
[/B]
Nothing is being done about the main reason GM got into these problems in the first place... they build crappy vehicles! When I needed a new vehicle I asked a friend of mine that owns a tow truck company what he recommends... he said to buy a honda or toyota because the vast majority of vehicles he tows are Ford/GM/Chryslers. He said that he almost never tows a honda or toyota. Needless to say that I am very happy with my Toyota Camry :)
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