Who should pay entry fee?

[Victor Plotkin]

After reading posts about entry fees and how ridiculous is to offer IM discount for early registration I decided to share my expereince from one tournament I was playing 2 years ago.

It was blitz tournament after Aeroflot Open 2009 in Moscow. Prize fund was very significant for blitz (35,000 EURO, about 20 % ot total prize fund for this festival) and lot of GMs who played in regular tournament saw this blitz event as a good opportunity to win some prize money.

The entry was free for A1 (2550 + FIDE) and A2 (2400 - 2550) players and also for 3 winners of eash B (2200 - 2400) and C (below 2200) tournaments.
Other B and C players and GM who didn't play in regular Aeroflot tournament were allowed to participate after paying pretty high amount of 300 EURO. There were very few not-GM who was willing to donate 300 EURO. (May be I was the only one). I personally saw 2700 + GM paying this fee to organizer (Mr. A. Bach). Eric Hansen was the other Canadian, he was playing in A2 section and was allowed to participate for free.

Few words about tournament itself. 9 double-round Swiss, about 180 players, more than 100 GMs including Svidler, Karyakin, Ponomarev, Gashimov who came especially for blitz (and all paid 300 EURO). Frankly I was scared not to finish last (for some reason I don't like it) but in reality it was one of my best blitz tournaments. I finished with 7.5 out of 18, including 6 of 14 against GMs.
Time control was 3min + 2sec/move which is much better than regular 5 min/game. Some (even 1 sec) increment is absolutely nessecary to avoid unpleasant situations and endless involvement of TD.

OK, now to conclusions... It's not easy to compare this blitz tournament to regular Canadian week-end event. Sure, this tournament is much stronger. But you also can't compare 2400 (sometimes below) IMs with 2700 + GM.
In both cases the entry fee is around 1 % of whole plize fund. So in both cases heavy favourite pays 1% of prize fund and gets very good (but not 100%) chances to earn much more. I think it's fair for him and for other players as well.

I know some regular chesstalkers will not like my opinion. Please, try to behave respectfully.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

I think a better starting point is "why" should some players get free entry. This may depend somewhat on the goals of the organizer but the traditional answer is that the players in question bring more players to the tournament because of their fame and strength - hence 'paying' for the free entry. It is not my experience that the participation of a typical strong reasonably local player increases tournament participation. [Another arguement sometimes used is that you should do this out of 'respect'. I'll state up front, I have no respect.]

The other factor is what percentage of the tournament players will qualify for free entry. If that number is something like 5 out of 100 players which it often is in many tournaments for a free FM or higher, I think that is too high a percentage. If you are only in the 5th percentile of a tournament listing, you are not strong enough to be getting free entry.

As to the thread on asking for early pre-registration, I instituted a similar policy for the Keres last year and am doing it again. [I presume from his post referring to the Keres that Bob Gillanders saw that and liked it for his own tournament]. My views on providing free entry should be well known to most readers of this board (I don't believe they are necessary or justiified) but the Keres has a long history of providing some free entries so I am relunctent to mess with that tradition. However, if I am going to provide free entry, I am going to demand that I get the putative benefit that having that player provides - i.e. advertising their presence in the tournament. Hence, the requirement for early pre-registration. A strong player who shows up at the door asking for free entry does nothing for the attendence at my tournament.

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

The entry was free for A1 (2550 + FIDE) and A2 (2400 - 2550) players.

Other B and C players and GM who didn't play in regular Aeroflot tournament were allowed to participate after paying pretty high amount of 300 EURO.

If entry is free for 2550+, why did GMs pay 300 Euro?


Who should pay? Organizers are well advised to fund strong professional chess players, because their presence is good for the tournament. Pay them to show.

If I win that's great. If I lose but get to play strong players, that's also great. If I play okay, but get to watch some top-notch games, that's great too.

But organizers also need to make money. If they fare better without free admissions, that's their choice.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

There should be some sort of guarantee that the freebees will play all their games (e.g. a contract and/or a refundable deposit). At the World Open, GM's enter for free - but $200 is deducted from any prize they win. (win the $25k first prize outright, and the $200 is nothing).

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

In order to get a proper perspective on entry fees for major events, let us step back and look at what other sports are doing.
*To play in the WSOP (World Series of Poker) where the prize fund approaches $100 million! each participant pays their own way with $10,000 cash money! ... Even the World Champion pays this. No one expects a free shot at the millions.
*In backgammon, where I played major tournaments for over 20 years, I paid some hefty entry fees - as much as $5,000. I only cashed a 1st twice - both in 1985 - the European Championship - and the British Championship with prize money of $10,000 and $20,000 respectively. No one expects a free entry to a backgammon tournament. The best you can do is get someone to pay your entry and hotel for 50% of the winnings.
*In golf, where I have little or no experience, I read once that Tiger Woods had forgotten to pay his registration fee and had to borrow money from one of the other players to sign in!
I don't know the situation in tennis - perhaps someone else can fill us in there.
It seems chess stands alone where those most likely to win the cash expect to get a complimentary entry. When did this start? Some posters on ChessTalk suggest that tournament organisers should get down on their knees and kiss the ass of any GM who drops by for a payday. I am of the opinion that free entry should be allowed only in the case where someone will attract significant entries to the event.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

...
It seems chess stands alone where those most likely to win the cash expect to get a complimentary entry. When did this start? Some posters on ChessTalk suggest that tournament organisers should get down on their knees and kiss the ass of any GM who drops by for a payday. I am of the opinion that free entry should be allowed only in the case where someone will attract significant entries to the event.

When all entrants are in one section, playing for place prizes only, then you would have a point. Since we are stuck with a rating system, that isn't the case.

BTW, in poker I would bet a significant percentage of the participants at the WSOP Main Event either have backers or qualified through some sort of satellite or series of satellites.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

[Another arguement sometimes used is that you should do this out of 'respect'. I'll state up front, I have no respect.]

When it comes to organizing and dealing with top players this attitude is a non-starter.
In professionnal sports coaches that show no respect for their veterans and star players do not last very long.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

In order to get a proper perspective on entry fees for major events, let us step back and look at what other sports are doing.
*To play in the WSOP (World Series of Poker) where the prize fund approaches $100 million! each participant pays their own way with $10,000 cash money! ... Even the World Champion pays this. No one expects a free shot at the millions.
*In backgammon, where I played major tournaments for over 20 years, I paid some hefty entry fees - as much as $5,000. I only cashed a 1st twice - both in 1985 - the European Championship - and the British Championship with prize money of $10,000 and $20,000 respectively. No one expects a free entry to a backgammon tournament. The best you can do is get someone to pay your entry and hotel for 50% of the winnings.
*In golf, where I have little or no experience, I read once that Tiger Woods had forgotten to pay his registration fee and had to borrow money from one of the other players to sign in!
I don't know the situation in tennis - perhaps someone else can fill us in there.
It seems chess stands alone where those most likely to win the cash expect to get a complimentary entry. When did this start? Some posters on ChessTalk suggest that tournament organisers should get down on their knees and kiss the ass of any GM who drops by for a payday. I am of the opinion that free entry should be allowed only in the case where someone will attract significant entries to the event.

Dear Vlad,

I all the "sports" quoted, prizes are substancial AND guaranteed, which is not the case in chess tournaments in Ontario where entry fees are required for an uncertain but decidedly small amount of money. Furthermore in tennis and golf the top stars often get appearances fees and all expenses paid on top of the prize monies.

Nobody ask nobody to kiss asses but YOU feel this way which may explain your 4-6 players blitz tournaments. May I suggest that in this matter your ego stands in the way ?

Titled players staying home or retiring more or less completely (often because of lack of respect rather then lack of money) bring no benefits to anyone. They dont pay entry fees, they dont serve as teachers and stepping stones to younger players, and they don't serve to attract other players. Assuming these players attract only one extra player, free entry actually costs nothing, makes top players feel wanted and respected (but not rich...) and probably may extend their active period to the benefits of all.

And lastly regarding blitz events, please take note of this piece of wisdom from Mr Plotkin: "Time control was 3min + 2sec/move which is much better than regular 5 min/game. Some (even 1 sec) increment is absolutely nessecary to avoid unpleasant situations and endless involvement of TD." Whether this measure could increase participation in your events is uncertain though. With time you have dug your blitz a hole from which it may no be easy to get out.

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

Dear Vlad,

I all the "sports" quoted, prizes are substancial AND guaranteed, which is not the case in chess tournaments in Ontario where entry fees are required for an uncertain but decidedly small amount of money. Furthermore in tennis and golf the top stars often get appearances fees and all expenses paid on top of the prize monies.

Nobody ask nobody to kiss asses but YOU feel this way which may explain your 4-6 players blitz tournaments. May I suggest that in this matter your ego stands in the way ?

Titled players staying home or retiring more or less completely (often because of lack of respect rather then lack of money) bring no benefits to anyone. They dont pay entry fees, they dont serve as teachers and stepping stones to younger players, and they don't serve to attract other players. Assuming these players attract only one extra player, free entry actually costs nothing, makes top players feel wanted and respected (but not rich...) and probably may extend their active period to the benefits of all.

And lastly regarding blitz events, please take note of this piece of wisdom from Mr Plotkin: "Time control was 3min + 2sec/move which is much better than regular 5 min/game. Some (even 1 sec) increment is absolutely nessecary to avoid unpleasant situations and endless involvement of TD." Whether this measure could increase participation in your events is uncertain though. With time you have dug your blitz a hole from which it may no be easy to get out.

You are right, ass-kissing is not part of my repertoire for increasing the Saturday Blitz. The prizes are based on entry fees ($20 X No. of players + $50) I occasionally invite players to play with free entry (at my expense) - you will not be one of them - so stay home and save $30. As for the 3 minutes + increment time control, I considered trying it but the digital clocks I recently purchased for about $300 do not have the increment function. Also the current players (including Mr Plotkin) are happy with game/5 minutes. You have a regular monthly blitz in Montreal. Why don't you influence them to run the event to your specifications. And get them to find a sponsor to boost the prize fund and then give you a free entry and limosine service which I'm sure you feel you deserve as CFC Champion.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

You are right, ass-kissing is not part of my repertoire for increasing the Saturday Blitz.

Considering the results it seems that your repertoire is way too limited.

The prizes are based on entry fees ($20 X No. of players + $50) I occasionally invite players to play with free entry (at my expense) - you will not be one of them - so stay home and save $30.

Quite unnecessary rudeness. As an organizer if you goal has been to make people stay home you have been doing fine. It seems that even those you would like to see at your events, even those who might praise you but really dont care do just that: stay home and save $30.

As for the 3 minutes + increment time control, I considered trying it but the digital clocks I recently purchased for about $300 do not have the increment function.

And who is to blame for that brainless purchase ? I did not even know that digital clocks without incrementation existed. Even less that someone involved in chess for decades could actually be tempted to buy such junk.

Also the current players (including Mr Plotkin) are happy with game/5 minutes.

Which players for God's sake ? You have been running most events with 4-6 players lately (and probably thanks to invited players isn't it?), most of them without Mr Plotkin!

You have a regular monthly blitz in Montreal. Why don't you influence them to run the event to your specifications.

I like the impossible challenge to influence you positively.:) Will you one day realise that doing the same things over and over will bring the same disappointing results ? Besides I do not live in Montreal any more and the blitz there is not yet in such a bad state, entry fees are still reasonable. But my first advice for it would be similar: give free entry to the 4-5 top players. This does not cost anything because they have not been playing anyway! This may help to attract a few more players and create a little snowball effect. The second advice would be to adopt increment. Most players have their own digital clocks (with increment!!) anyway. TDs and participants do not like arguments which often ruin the atmosphere. Increment prevents most if not all of them.

[Victor Plotkin]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

My previous post wasn't about blitz tournaments in Toronto or Montreal. In both cities this kind of tournaments are in extremally poor situation. Really I don't know whose situation is worse. And we are talking about 2 main chess cities in Canada.

I was writing about regular slow-chess week-end events in Canada. Right now IM has 3 different kinds of advantage over regular player (like myself).

1. He plays better than me and has more chances to win prize.

It' s absolutely fair... The same time I has more chances than 2200 CFC player (although 2200 player usually competes for class prize).

2. In last 1 or 2 rounds usually higher-rated player gets lower-rated opponents.

I don't want to argue about it too much. It's my opinion based on amount of tournaments I played recently. Just 1 example. After 4 round in 5-rounds event 6 players have 3.5 points. 1GM, 2 IMs, me (2400 CFC) and 2 2300 players. IMs probably play against 2300 players, I play against GM.

Nothing to do with it. Swiss system is much better than any other if we have more players than the number of rounds.

3. IM doesn't pay entry fee or gets significant discount.

I think it's unfair.

It's not the matter of respect. Pay's he entry fee or doesn't I always feel respect to person who plays chess much better than me. It's not money. Money cannot buy you respect (and real friends as well).
I just think we all must be equal before start of the tournament.

Last comment about idea "title player brings at least 1 another player to the tournament". It's not always right. I know some players decided not to play beca.use field looked too strong for them (and they estimated chances to win prize money as not high enough to compete).

[Laurentiu Grigorescu]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

Good points on this thread. In the end a chess tournament is a business case. Revenue is made, unfortunately, almost entirely by the entry fees. Then there are expenses, including prizes. The "marketing plan" may include free entries, if deemed "profitable' for the 'business".
However, if there is a much larger scale (provincial, federal) strategy to encourage certain directions (increase memebrship, attract sponsors, promote performance, etc), then some entry fees can be "subsidized" or "accounted for" in different manners.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

Quite unnecessary rudeness. As an organizer if you goal has been to make people stay home you have been doing fine. It seems that even those you would like to see at your events, even those who might praise you but really dont care do just that: stay home and save $30.

Maybe chess players stay home because they are sick. Chess players are always sick. Did you ever beat a chess player who told you he was feeling very well and can't understand why he lost?

$30. is not a very high entry fee for an afternoon of speed chess.

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

Maybe chess players stay home because they are sick. Chess players are always sick. Did you ever beat a chess player who told you he was feeling very well and can't understand why he lost?

$30. is not a very high entry fee for an afternoon of speed chess.

Lmao, good point :D, $30 is pretty high Gary, especially as Jean pointed out Vlad basically gets 5 players every week at his events. I mean at Hart House we have discounts for juniors and university members and often those players only have to pay 40-50 for a whole weekend of chess. Victor makes a good point about IM's and entree fees but IM's do attract other players, especially in a city like Toronto where there aren't that many in proportion. An average weekender may have 1 GM (Bator) and 2-3 IM's (Samsonkin, Gerzhoy, Noritsyn) (Pardon me if I left someone off) and about 80 players. It's true that some players are just going for the money (even though the running gag is that you can't make money in chess) but most other players appreciate playing an IM and learning from their games and improving upon it. However, if you compare Toronto weekenders to European events where there's so many more GM's, it doesn't make a lot of sense offering free entree to IM's. I'm assuming in those cases, people still do it due to tradition and a sign of respect towards players who've achieved that title.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Who should pay entry fee?

I guess the $30. entry fee being expensive depends on if a person has the money or not. Still, if the players want the prize money on a weekly basis they have to expect to make the pot.

There are cases to be made for and against the value of high rated players to events. When I was organizing OTB in the late 60's and early 70's it was with the Scarborough club. There were always 100 or more paid members. I'd say the highest rating was maybe around 2100. The better players would go to the Toronto Chess Club which wasn't very far away in distance. It was better competition. These days the club has changed and they do have strong players.

These days players are willing to pay big money to play in lower sections of events where part of their entry goes to subsidize the prize fund for the top section for which they don't even qualify. So I have to assume things aren't really that bad.