proposal for Ottawa event game capture

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  • proposal for Ottawa event game capture

    Hi there, this post is primarily directed towards Hugh, Jean, John U., John B., Alex, and Egis. However, I am open to feedback from anyone, especially players rated over 2200.

    In a separate thread, Hugh made the very insightful point that if someone were to try and compile Bator's games against some of the best players in Ottawa and even Ontario, that the current way I run Ottawa events could risk losing some of those games forever. When thinking about this more, I realize that Hugh is totally right, that this would indeed be a loss for our Canadian chess community. Therefore, here is what I am proposing to change:

    1) Call Brad/CMA looking for the biggest discount on a huge load of carbon scoresheets! ;)
    2) For every Ottawa event from now on, for every game in the Masters Section (rated 2200 and up), provide 2 carbon scoresheets right on the board before each round starts.
    3) Announce that it is now mandatory for all players in the Masters Section to submit the copy of their scoresheet to me, at the same time as their result is recorded on the pairings sheet at the front of the playing area. That would leave me with 2 copies per those games.
    4) If John Upper wants any of the copies, he still could take singles for his CFC articles.
    5) After the end of the event, I mail all of the remaining copies to Hugh for compilation.

    Optional 6) If someone is interested, they could continuously ChessBase these games as they complete, posting them after each round, or at least each evening. Unfortunately, I cannot do this while TDing, but I am hoping that a parent who is waiting around, could take ownership of this side job, which would be quite interesting for both players and other ChessTalkers. And it would help me to email, rather than snail mail, everything to Hugh! :)

    Before officially implementing this change (I am by nature wary of changing things too often, LOL), I would like to hear back from at least the following key people. However, I am of course open to anyone's feedback on this, especially the players rated over 2200, who would be the ones impacted. I would like to officially announce all of the details for the Ottawa Spring Open this week, so I am hoping to receive confirmations/feedback by then:

    Hugh: With this proposal, in the worst case, I would be mailing you 1 or 2 scoresheets from every single game in the Masters Section (>=2200). And for those events where another volunteer comes forward, I would just be emailing ChessBase captures of all these games.

    Jean: I am especially interested in your confirmation as an elite player. If you think there is anything that we could reasonably accommodate to improve this proposal, please do not hesitate to let me know, either here, or privately by email. Thanks in advance for that.

    John U.: You would still get your games for your CFC articles. In fact, using this process, you would have access to about double the games that you do now. However, I have appreciated these articles, and want to make sure that I am not hamstringing you in any way, so let me know. By the way, do you have extra carbon scoresheets to donate/sell?

    John B. & Alex: There are many awesome Organizers and TDs in Ontario and Canada, but as we discussed tournament stuff on a few occasions, and you seemed interested in the thread, I just want to check with you that I am not missing anything obvious, that could lead to way more work for anyone, or way more inconvenience for anyone? Thanks guys.

    Egis: You seemed interested, and you like commenting, so here's another chance! ;)

    Yours in chess, Aris from Ottawa.

  • #2
    Re:

    Please

    Somebody invent a scorebook where a copy can torn off and given to the organizer(unless it alreday has been).

    Michael Yip

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

      Originally posted by Aris Marghetis View Post
      Hi there, this post is primarily directed towards Hugh, Jean, John U., John B., Alex, and Egis. However, I am open to feedback from anyone, especially players rated over 2200.

      In a separate thread, Hugh made the very insightful point that if someone were to try and compile Bator's games against some of the best players in Ottawa and even Ontario, that the current way I run Ottawa events could risk losing some of those games forever. When thinking about this more, I realize that Hugh is totally right, that this would indeed be a loss for our Canadian chess community. Therefore, here is what I am proposing to change:

      1) Call Brad/CMA looking for the biggest discount on a huge load of carbon scoresheets! ;)
      2) For every Ottawa event from now on, for every game in the Masters Section (rated 2200 and up), provide 2 carbon scoresheets right on the board before each round starts.
      3) Announce that it is now mandatory for all players in the Masters Section to submit the copy of their scoresheet to me, at the same time as their result is recorded on the pairings sheet at the front of the playing area. That would leave me with 2 copies per those games.
      4) If John Upper wants any of the copies, he still could take singles for his CFC articles.
      5) After the end of the event, I mail all of the remaining copies to Hugh for compilation.

      Optional 6) If someone is interested, they could continuously ChessBase these games as they complete, posting them after each round, or at least each evening. Unfortunately, I cannot do this while TDing, but I am hoping that a parent who is waiting around, could take ownership of this side job, which would be quite interesting for both players and other ChessTalkers. And it would help me to email, rather than snail mail, everything to Hugh! :)

      Before officially implementing this change (I am by nature wary of changing things too often, LOL), I would like to hear back from at least the following key people. However, I am of course open to anyone's feedback on this, especially the players rated over 2200, who would be the ones impacted. I would like to officially announce all of the details for the Ottawa Spring Open this week, so I am hoping to receive confirmations/feedback by then:

      Hugh: With this proposal, in the worst case, I would be mailing you 1 or 2 scoresheets from every single game in the Masters Section (>=2200). And for those events where another volunteer comes forward, I would just be emailing ChessBase captures of all these games.

      Jean: I am especially interested in your confirmation as an elite player. If you think there is anything that we could reasonably accommodate to improve this proposal, please do not hesitate to let me know, either here, or privately by email. Thanks in advance for that.

      John U.: You would still get your games for your CFC articles. In fact, using this process, you would have access to about double the games that you do now. However, I have appreciated these articles, and want to make sure that I am not hamstringing you in any way, so let me know. By the way, do you have extra carbon scoresheets to donate/sell?

      John B. & Alex: There are many awesome Organizers and TDs in Ontario and Canada, but as we discussed tournament stuff on a few occasions, and you seemed interested in the thread, I just want to check with you that I am not missing anything obvious, that could lead to way more work for anyone, or way more inconvenience for anyone? Thanks guys.

      Egis: You seemed interested, and you like commenting, so here's another chance! ;)

      Yours in chess, Aris from Ottawa.
      Good luck with this Aris - imho you are on the right track.
      One question: what about people who use Monroi? Do they have to also record the moves of the game on the carbon scoresheet (it seems whenever I have seen someone using a Monroi they are *not* using a paper scoresheet - that is sort of the point of the device after all). If the person is using the Monroi for themselves (ie: it is NOT connected to a Monroi server for the tournament) then I presume they may be able to send you copies of the game score later?

      If only one of the players is using a Monroi, you could simply accept the scoresheet copy from the other player. If they both are using ...
      ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Off the cuff idea #2

        CMA prints up the self-copying scoresheets with the CMA logo and website on it and gives them to you free as part of a clever advertising campaign.

        :)

        Mike Yip
        Last edited by Michael Yip; Wednesday, 19th January, 2011, 12:12 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Off the cuff idea #2

          Originally posted by Michael Yip View Post
          CMA prints up the self-copying scoresheets with the CMA logo and website on it and gives them to you free as part of a clever advertising campaign.

          :)

          Mike Yip
          Thanks Mike! :)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

            Originally posted by Kerry Liles View Post
            Good luck with this Aris - imho you are on the right track.
            One question: what about people who use Monroi? Do they have to also record the moves of the game on the carbon scoresheet (it seems whenever I have seen someone using a Monroi they are *not* using a paper scoresheet - that is sort of the point of the device after all). If the person is using the Monroi for themselves (ie: it is NOT connected to a Monroi server for the tournament) then I presume they may be able to send you copies of the game score later?

            If only one of the players is using a Monroi, you could simply accept the scoresheet copy from the other player. If they both are using ...
            Thanks Kerry. I do come from a bit of a process background, so I wanted to line up everything, but had just not thought of Monroi. No one has ever used a Monroi at any of my Ottawa events the last few years, but I guess I should make a decision on that. If nothing is changed from the above proposal, then that would mean they could not use it alone. However, does anyone know, can someone email/transmit their game right after it has been completed, from a Monroi device being used without a server, to an email?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

              Originally posted by Aris Marghetis View Post
              3) Announce that it is now mandatory for all players in the Masters Section to submit the copy of their scoresheet to me, at the same time as their result is recorded on the pairings sheet at the front of the playing area. That would leave me with 2 copies per those games.
              I strongly object to this. Voluntary? Sure. Mandatory? Count me out.

              As for people who want games for their entertainment value, amusement etc. My rebuttal (warning - lots of profanity):

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINt...184D4&index=40
              "Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                Originally posted by Aris Marghetis View Post
                Thanks Kerry. I do come from a bit of a process background, so I wanted to line up everything, but had just not thought of Monroi. No one has ever used a Monroi at any of my Ottawa events the last few years, but I guess I should make a decision on that. If nothing is changed from the above proposal, then that would mean they could not use it alone. However, does anyone know, can someone email/transmit their game right after it has been completed, from a Monroi device being used without a server, to an email?
                I don't have or use a Monroi, but I believe one possibility is to take the memory card (SD card) out of the Monroi and retrieve the pgn file from it.
                This would of course be somewhat manual and require the TD (or someone) to have a laptop or other device with an SD card reader.

                The Monroi website says of the device: "Upload games to a computer and e-mail them to your coach." but it isn't clear whether that can be done via a standard wireless network connection (I doubt it) or via the SD card...
                ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                  Originally posted by Tom O'Donnell View Post
                  I strongly object to this. Voluntary? Sure. Mandatory? Count me out.

                  As for people who want games for their entertainment value, amusement etc. My rebuttal (warning - lots of profanity):

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINt...184D4&index=40
                  Dang, and I was hoping that this would be a slam dunk! Tom, especially as you are a very experienced/titled player who attracts entries, why would you be against this? Even at the WYCC, every single scoresheet was collected. In addition, your opponent would be submitting theirs anyway. I am not arguing with you, just sincerely interested in your reasoning, as it might shed light on how to proceed with these ideas from here.

                  Hugh et al, what if I didn't make it mandatory, and just provided the carbon scoresheets on the board before the round started. Wouldn't we get most, if not all games, anyway?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                    Originally posted by Tom O'Donnell View Post
                    I strongly object to this. Voluntary? Sure. Mandatory? Count me out.
                    Tom,
                    What are you talking about ? Of course it has to be mandatory! These scoresheets do not belong to you and it is mandatory to keep score of your games. Organizers (or TDs) lending scoresheets to you are perfectly in their right to claim them, even if only as a proof that the game was played. You don't want to make recording moves "voluntary", do you ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mandatory Collection of Game Scores

                      The tournament organizer’s right re games played in their tournaments:

                      CFC Handbook:Section 4, Article 8.3

                      http://www.chess.ca/section_4.htm

                      " 8.3 The score sheets are the property of the organizers of the event. "

                      It is mandatory where the organizer decides to collect the scores, unless the organizer compromises his right and explicitly makes it " voluntary ".

                      Bob

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                        Hi Jean, glad to see that you are on this thread. What do you think about the rest of this proposal? Excuse my imperfect memory, but am I covering all of the bases that you mentioned to me when we chatted at the Ottawa event you attended way back when?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                          Originally posted by Aris Marghetis View Post
                          Hugh et al, what if I didn't make it mandatory, and just provided the carbon scoresheets on the board before the round started. Wouldn't we get most, if not all games, anyway?
                          Aris,
                          Demand ALL score sheets, as proof of the result, which is how things go and have been going for ever at the international level. This is simplest and aim for best result which is to collect 100% of all games, not 90, not 95, not 99, but 100%! In such matters there is no point in playing the cool guy that do not want to annoy people. That simply amounts to a lack of leadership. Doing things differently always annoy a few people, until the new and better way (not a shadow of a doubt in this case) becomes the old way.
                          Go ahead, get NCRs and collect the scoresheets. End of story. There is nothing mind-boggling there that requires an elaborate plan!
                          Furthermore in my opinion collecting only the top section is not entirely satisfactory. There might be a future Magnus Carlsen, or even better, a future Jean Hébert :) in that -2200 section of yours, don't we want his or her games too ? Besides, players should learn to hand out their results with their scoresheets in kindergarten! :)
                          Last edited by Jean Hébert; Wednesday, 19th January, 2011, 01:24 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                            Yes - try to collect all the scoresheets in the top section (and any sections which are likely to have 2000+ rated players in them). Provide NCR scoresheets for at least the top board in each of the lower sections (I don't think many of the lower boards in the lower sections are future Carlsens or Héberts) - unless they voluntarily hand in their games (which often happens from my experience)).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: proposal for Ottawa event game capture

                              Originally posted by Hugh Brodie View Post
                              Yes - try to collect all the scoresheets in the top section (and any sections which are likely to have 2000+ rated players in them). Provide NCR scoresheets for at least the top board in each of the lower sections (I don't think many of the lower boards in the lower sections are future Carlsens or Héberts) - unless they voluntarily hand in their games (which often happens from my experience)).
                              Hi Hugh, I now feel that I am making the proverbial mistake of offering an inch?! ;)

                              I am willing to spend my own money so that Bator's games are captured for posterity.

                              Comment

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