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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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Tom,
What are you talking about ? Of course it has to be mandatory! These scoresheets do not belong to you and it is mandatory to keep score of your games. Organizers (or TDs) lending scoresheets to you are perfectly in their right to claim them, even if only as a proof that the game was played. You don't want to make recording moves "voluntary", do you ?
Does the scoresheet belong to me if I purchased it? ;-) I see no reason why I would voluntarily want my games to be made public. Why would I want to make it easier for opponents to prepare against me? As for proof whether the game was played, I would think it would be pretty obvious if a game weren't played, no? It's not like the tournament has thousands of people in it.
Tangentially, I have no problem with people making recording games voluntary. Players not recording their games wouldn't have recourse to claiming threefold repetitions, for example, which would make it risky to not record, but on the other hand not recording would save a small amount of time, which could prove beneficial in some games. Lots of tournaments in Canada don't require players keep score. Even some CFC-rated events don't require it.
Likewise, choosing not to make games public probably has some downside, too. I am willing to accept that downside in return for making it tougher for opponents to prepare. Of course if my opponent wants to submit our work product he has a right to do that. If a TD/organizer decided to make submitting scoresheets mandatory, I would factor that in when deciding whether or not to play in an event.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
I imagine monroi would be far to expensive for these events... the cost if you want to buy the equipment is prohibitve. I am not sure what they charge to rent the stuff but I believe they always have someone on site when they do; and jjust paying this person's salary (at minimum wage) is far more then most tournaments can afford.
Some things to consider based on handing out my own carbon scoresheets at tournys:
Score books: some players always use their own score books; so they make only one version of the gamescore and own the paper on which it is written. [policy?]
Privacy: some players really don't want their games made public and will not participate. As Tom O says, it makes it easier for your opponents to prepare. As he didn't say, a public record of your bad moves might be bad for people in the chess teaching business. Tom has always refused to use the carbons I put at his board, but he's also never objected to my giving and collecting ones from his opponents. [what if you have two people who don't want their games collected?]
Carbons (good): You only need one carbon per board.
Carbons (bad): Michael Yip's suggestion that C&M donate scoresheets is (I think) more hopeful than realistic, since they charge $18 per 100 NCRs. It doesn't sound like much, but a 50 player 5rd event has 250 games, which would require 125 carbons. [who pays?]
Frustrated Volunteers The ammount of time and frustration increases exponentially as the game scores descend from top boards to bottom and gamescore errors increase towards incoherence. [good luck with volunteers for that]
Databases Scoresheets are not the only way to collect games. I've had people email me games after they've entered them in their own databases. [IMHO, any future Carlsens out there will undoubtably have a Db with their own games and (probably) a coach with copies of those games, so there's little risk of those games being lost.]
Bator: Similarly, you don't need carbons to get Bator's games:
a) he usually leaves his scoresheet at the board, and politely asking him for it is enough.
b) through what I can only imagine is an amazing series of fortunate events, a lot of his games have appeared in the CFC newsletter, which comes with a PGN, so if anyone was keeping a database of Canadian games they could add Bator's games from it.
Last edited by John Upper; Wednesday, 19th January, 2011, 03:08 PM.
... As Tom O says, it makes it easier for your opponents to prepare. As he didn't say, a public record of your bad moves might be bad for people in the chess teaching business. ...
I hadn't thought of that reason, but ya it seems like a good one.
Just for the record, if anyone has a copy of the very old BCCF magazine "Counterplay" and they check sometime in the mid-80s they will see an article by Bruce Harper with an intro something like
"Rumour has it that Tom [O'Donnell] doesn't like having his games made public..."
It was true 25 years ago, it's true now and I dare say if I live long enough it will be true in another 25 years. ;-)
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Hi John, thanks for your thorough post, which covers a lot of angles that I had not consciously thought of, but upon further consideration, could be taken into account.
In the end, what we implement might be very similar to what we do now, except that I ensure that we cover the whole Masters Section, and an inbox at the front of the room.
I would also mail to Hugh afterwards, as no volunteers yet for the ongoing data entry.
Looking at the whole situation that way, we might be closer to resolution than I worried.
In a separate thread, Hugh made the very insightful point that if someone were to try and compile Bator's games against some of the best players in Ottawa and even Ontario, that the current way I run Ottawa events could risk losing some of those games forever. When thinking about this more, I realize that Hugh is totally right, that this would indeed be a loss for our Canadian chess community. Therefore, here is what I am proposing to change:
As a tournament director, I wouldn't accept a game result without the completed scoresheet.
The Scarborough CC doesn't post any games from an event until it is over - thus cutting down on the "preparation" syndrome. (well...then what about any world-class GM tournament in which the moves from every game are known instantly, or - at worst - a couple of hours after the games?)
Contrary to John's post - generally the higher the rating, the poorer the handwriting (look at some of Fischer's scoresheets). e.g. I was able to read the scoresheets of 99%+ of the 1000+ games from the NAYCC and CYCC.
European tournaments often use dozens (if not hundreds) of DGT boards which store the games automatically without any player intervention (except for keeping the pieces centred on the squares, and not doing post-game analysis on them before reporting the result).
About the free carbon copies:
We have in the past at Hart House made the following deal with CMA: they provide the score sheets for the event, and they can set up a booth to sell there wears. Seems this benefits both parties... though I must admit it has not happened since Andrew M. left CMA in Toronto.
... (well...then what about any world-class GM tournament in which the moves from every game are known instantly, or - at worst - a couple of hours after the games?) ...
I like to play soccer. Even though the World Cup is a televised event, I wouldn't want my soccer games broadcast world-wide. ;-)
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Hi Hugh, I now feel that I am making the proverbial mistake of offering an inch?! ;)
I am willing to spend my own money so that Bator's games are captured for posterity.
hello aris
1) you can probably get a sponsorship with an entreprise logo on the schoresheet or a governement campain slogan about many topics...
a way to reach teenagers
2) or put GMI or IM scroresheets on sell after the capture...
lots of collectors are ready to pay ....
3) or gave back those IM-GM schoresheets as a participation prize to the kids... in the next tournements
1.How many self-duplicating scoresheet would you need to start the ball rolling?
2.How many would you need for a year?
3.Have you considered asking the cash rich ACA to give you some of theirs?
1) Call Brad/CMA looking for the biggest discount on a huge load of carbon ncrs
Yours in chess, Aris from Ottawa.
1). Print your own. Advantages: cheaper (in volume), faster delivery, you can put your own info on the sheet (your standard time control, webpage, advertising). What's not to like? For the gpo / Keres I got $0.11/page for ncrs (qty 500) $0.035/ page regular scoresheets (qty 1000) and no shipping/handling. You can do much better if you up the quantity. Just provide your local printer (or one of the chains like Business Depot) with camera ready copy.
2) yeah the spectators want the game record and they want you to work at entering game scores but they don't pay entry fees do they? Do what works for your agenda, not Hugh's or anyone else. I could imagine wanting scoresheets for your tournament report and your own publicity (my reasons as an organizer) but I'm not too interested in doing the work to make non-paying bystanders happy.
The Scarborough CC doesn't post any games from an event until it is over - thus cutting down on the "preparation" syndrome. (well...then what about any world-class GM tournament in which the moves from every game are known instantly, or - at worst - a couple of hours after the games?)
Contrary to John's post - generally the higher the rating, the poorer the handwriting (look at some of Fischer's scoresheets). e.g. I was able to read the scoresheets of 99%+ of the 1000+ games from the NAYCC and CYCC.
It was mostly postal games where I insisted on the game score. The ICCF wanted them when I directed for them as well. I mailed them to someone who entered them for the database. When a result came without a scoresheet I wrote to asked for one but mostly the players were enthusiastic about their wins and the possibility of publication.
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